Official Sign DeAndre Jordan Thread (Note from Jazzfanz: Thread not official)

[GVC]

You presented "evidence" that his PPP on Post Ups is basically identical to four of the best post players in the game -- Pao, Zach, Blake, and Bosh. He's not even that far from Howard, arguably the best true post up player in the game. The guys at the top of that list are opportunistic post guys -- Barnagni, Nowitski, West. They catch the right matchup, they post, but that's not how they make their living. Those dudes are shooters.

Stick with your TS% and adjusted +/- arguments. At least you can distort the significance of those stats. With this argument, you're just proving Al is elite without even understanding that's what you're doing.

League average is NOT elite. Sorry. Chris Bosh makes his living off ISOs, Pao has a diverse game from the post and, gasp, is an excellent passer, Zach, again, is better than Big Al offensively across the board, Blake was a rookie who draws fouls, is much better in isolation situations and in transition. Those guys bring much more to the game than just shooting from the low post. And still, they're equal to or better than Big Al in the post.

What makes Big Al elite in the low post?

 

[GVC]

How does one "distort" the significance of TS%? Big Al is not efficient when he goes up for a shot. He also happens to be a terrible passer fro the post. No distortion is necessary.

 

[Sneakers]

I just re-read your first two posts:

1. Paul Millsap has too much of an ego to accept the bench role that best suits him.
2. Big Al deserves to start because he's taller than Millsap. It has nothing to do with being entitled to a starting job.

As stupid now as they were then.

Yes I think Millsap would be an excellent 6th man, but his ego has him convinced he's a starting PF in this league, dammit!

So you would rather start Favors and Millsap than Favors and Jefferson. Make our front court even smaller. That's just as stupid as starting an undersized front court has always been. How successful have undersized front-courts been in recent years? Why would this suddenly be the exception? Buh..buh becuzzz i wike Milllsap =(( isn't a reason.

In the end, we just disagree. You're not my professor and I don't have to write a damn essay justifying myself to you. You think my opinion is stupid, well I think yours is retarded. So there.

 

[My2Cents]

A swing and a miss. I'm not sure you understand PER enough, but even if you did, using that stat alone, while ignoring ALL other indicators would make you a fool of the highest order.

I was being facetious. But PER is also an indicator, as is the fact that Jefferson averaged 21.5 and 11 since the all-star break, an indicator of improvement as he got comfortable in the system. To ignore the positives while focusing soley on negative indicators would make you fool. I'm not hanging my hat on PER, I just find it funny that you reject it out of hand because it is contrary to your point of view.

 

[billyshelby]

League average is NOT elite. Sorry. Chris Bosh makes his living off ISOs, Pao has a diverse game from the post and, gasp, is an excellent passer, Zach, again, is better than Big Al offensively across the board, Blake was a rookie who draws fouls, is much better in isolation situations and in transition. Those guys bring much more to the game than just shooting from the low post. And still, they're equal to or better than Big Al in the post.

What makes Big Al elite in the low post?

So by your "logic," Pao, Blake, Randolph, Bosh, Love, and even Dwight Howard do not have elite post games. After all, none of those guys are in the Top 7 on that list. They're at the 'league average.' Got it.

 

[Jazz4ever]

So by your "logic," Pao, Blake, Randolph, Bosh, Love, and even Dwight Howard do not have elite post games. After all, none of those guys are in the Top 7 on that list. They're at the 'league average.' Got it.

He is right, they are not elite post players. I take it you're very young, but I strongly recommend you find some footage of a prime Duncan, Olajuwon, Mchale, or even Jordan to see what a true post player looks like. There is some footage of Hakeem working with Dwight from last summer on Youtube, and even at age 45, Hakeem made Howard's post up game look embarrassingly bad. Howard is decent in the post because of pure power. Pau is solid in the post, but gets exposed against someone his own size. Randolph has elite moves but is limited by his 2" vertical. Bosh, Love, and Blake are obviously face up power forwards, c'mon now.

 

[Favors Flave]

STATS STATS STATS STATS STATS! It's not all about stats I hate to tell ya. Millsap is a very good PF but is undersized, no denying it. His shooting stroke is awesome though for a PF. Millsap is most effective when he goes balls out and goes for all those rebounds and hustle plays. This is why he needs to be the 6th man, to conserve some energy and let him play against either tired starters or most likely the opposing teams less talented bench. He did awesome IMO as a starter but lost energy as the year went on. The defense needs to be addressed and Favors was the best defender and rebounder out of the 3 bigs. He boxes out, shows on pick and rolls and plays great help side and man to man D.

Big Al is a very good PF/C but most claim he is undersized for C. Big Al plays good position defense but that isn't in the stats. He has to go against a lot of the all stars and most of the times they make tough shots and it makes Big Al look bad according to STATS. Big Al has also showed the capability of playing decent weak side defense at the beginning of the season when the Jazz were winning. I remember games where his length was effecting a lot of people's shots and was getting a lot of blocks. When they started to lose, he lost that fire which kind of bugs me and his defense got worse. One thing he does need to do is box out more. Sometimes he also got Boozer disease and let the opposing player drive the lane for a lay up. Those things can be improved with some work in the offseason and/or a defensive assistant coach added. Having Favors next to Al also helps Big Al's D which is another reason Millsap needs to be a 6th man.

But all in all, we finally have a good core of bigs and can improve upon it even more with a pick like Kanter/Biyombo and/or getting a defensive C like Jordan. If you get too much bigs, then you shop either Big Al/Millsap and you get a solid package in return. But trading Millsap/Al just b/c Millsap is undersized or Al b/c he played some lazy D is crazy. The worst part on here was trading the guys for absolutely nothing. I'm glad that KOC didn't do that Millsap for Lopez and Pietrus deal. Both are BENCH PLAYERS, there is a reason both of those guys got under 18 mins per game

 

[GVC]

So by your "logic," Pao, Blake, Randolph, Bosh, Love, and even Dwight Howard do not have elite post games. After all, none of those guys are in the Top 7 on that list. They're at the 'league average.' Got it.

The only one on that list that falls below Al Jefferson is Chris Bosh, and clearly he is not a back to the basket player (Big Al will never develop a face up game nearly as efficient as Bosh's). All the others bring a lot more to the table than Big Al offensively and still manage to shoot better from the post. If a guy barely shoots at a league average level, and doesn't create better opportunities for his teammates from the post, how can you call him "elite"? Are you just a big fan of the push shot?

 

[GVC]

Big Al plays good position defense but that isn't in the stats. He has to go against a lot of the all stars and most of the times they make tough shots and it makes Big Al look bad according to STATS.

Actually, according to the stats, Big Al does a terrific job of manning up against opposing bigs (he also, statistically, defends the PnR well). His biggest problem is in transition, which should be nothing new to Jazz fans (Memo and Booze were equally bad).

 

[jazzrule]

Been reading all the good factual information, if I may let me give you my thoughts.

First let me say I love Millsap and would like to keep him as a 6th man. Second let me say that Jefferson needs to improve his jump shot, blocking out for rebounds, passing and playing defence against the pick and roll for the Jazz to have any chance of winning a championship with him as a starter.

Now let’s discuss some things. How about Jefferson's number of blocks against Lakers big men vs. Millsap's per game. You love stats see if you can find that one. You would have to look awfully hard to find where Millsap has blocked many of the Lakers’ bigs very often. I think Big Al's and Favors height and defence had a lot to do with us breaking the Lakers 17 games winning streak against the Jazz.
You don't like to hear height used as a reason to pick Jefferson over Millsap as a starter. Well get over it, because without height the Lakers have dominated us. Again it is not all about stats. The Lakers’ bigs scored almost at will against Boozer at center and Millsap at power forward. We could not stop them or compete with them in a seven game series without height. When we got close in the playoffs they would go to work and open the lead up again. The eye ball test is that with Jefferson and Favors playing against the Lakers we are some-what competitive, and should be more so with Favors getting experience and big Al making some improvements to his game. If Big Al does not improve his pick and roll defence, jump shot, passing and boxing out for rebounds, then I have no problem trading him away for a better big.
The bottom line is that unless Millsap plays power forward with a center the calibre of Dwight Howard he has little chance to ever win a championship. It is the Boozer syndrome again, against taller players Millsap cannot cut it come the playoffs, when the game becomes more of a half court game. No one will argue that Boozer is a better offensive player than Millsap, yet Boozer just had a 2 point game in the playoffs.
Yes, I know it is a team game and I appreciate your stats in that regard, but stats change in the playoffs. Like you said Jefferson wins over-all on individual stats against Millsap’s stats for last season, and remember that Jefferson was playing against taller players. I think Millsap’s numbers go down in many categories even more if he plays against the taller players Jefferson plays against during the regular season, and it would get worse during the playoffs.
Again Jefferson must improve in many areas for the Jazz to win a championship with him, but without a Dwight Howard type big man next to Millsap the Jazz have little chance to win a championship with him as a starting power forward. At least that is the way I see it and I think most posters will agree with that.

 

[LogGrad98]

I agree with pretty much most of what you said no matter how hard it was to read.

 

[Favors Flave]

Actually, according to the stats, Big Al does a terrific job of manning up against opposing bigs (he also, statistically, defends the PnR well). His biggest problem is in transition, which should be nothing new to Jazz fans (Memo and Booze were equally bad).

I agree. He becomes lazy when he misses a shot and rarely hustles down the court to fight his man for position. This is why Favors needs to start with Al because Favors runs the court so well and can man the paint while Al gets back on D. Getting an athletic C would also help too. The only problem is a good problem with getting an athletic C. You would have to have Favors move to the bench or you could trade Big Al(Which I really don't want to do) or you could move the defensive C to the bench and have him play a lot when the opposing team has great post players or are a run and gun team