Official Utah/Minnesota/Philadelphia Pick Watch

[Tremendous Upside]

Little 4 game win streak for the Wolves sadly.

Watched a bit of the Rockets game, and both these teams are just dreadful. I get the tank skeptics, and I think the Rockets are such a good picture of the dangers of it. I think Jalen Green is a great player, but running a selfish show with KPJ with seemingly little coaching I think will set him back in the long-run. Sengun, Jabari, and Jalen are all great prospects, but I expect their core to fizzle like Chicago's and all play better after leaving. The only vet presence on the Rockets is Eric Gordon and he is a baby back bitch who has been open about hating playing with the young guns. I am a biased Rockets hater, but I do think they are giving them too loose of a leash and prioritizing being bad too much that they'll struggle to ever build a winning culture

The current Rockets are a terrifying cautionary tale about the dangers of tanking.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The current Rockets are a terrifying cautionary tale about the dangers of tanking.

I mean they had a chance to draft Mobley... Green is fine but might just be empty calories. This is their third year in the dumps and if they land Wemby, Scoot, or one of the lesser talents they will have Green/Sengun/Smith Jr./Eason... and they have infinity cap space if they want to make a win now move. Their issue is they also have some picks out to OKC that will come due and will be ugly if they don't get better... but I wouldn't write them off just yet.

Also, what were their alternatives? Hold on to an unhappy James Harden? Win 35-40 games while paying James and then he walks in FA? Imagine walking into the middle of a house that was being remodeled and being like "well this **** looks awful!". Its supposed to look bad for a little while. Its okay.

 

[Douchebag K]

MCL sprains can be bitches. KD might be out for quite a while

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

Tanking is allways dangerous. They are plenty of team who did that and ended beeing bad for many years , just by picking the wrong guys. I prefer the DA strategy which for me consist as keeping a not too bad team, and tanking only one year. Then if you get a good pick, and some salary flexibility, you can rebuild quite fast. I still believe we are only 2 pieces to be a great team. Victor ( we can allways dream) and a good FA and here we are. Thats the main reason why i think DA will not trade people unless the return is good for us.

 

[framer]

I mean they had a chance to draft Mobley... Green is fine but might just be empty calories. This is their third year in the dumps and if they land Wemby, Scoot, or one of the lesser talents they will have Green/Sengun/Smith Jr./Eason... and they have infinity cap space if they want to make a win now move. Their issue is they also have some picks out to OKC that will come due and will be ugly if they don't get better... but I wouldn't write them off just yet.

Also, what were their alternatives? Hold on to an unhappy James Harden? Win 35-40 games while paying James and then he walks in FA? Imagine walking into the middle of a house that was being remodeled and being like "well this **** looks awful!". Its supposed to look bad for a little while. Its okay.

I feel very comfortable writing off the Rockets for quite a while.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I feel very comfortable writing off the Rockets for quite a while.

I mean sure… but if they had kept Harden we are writing them off even longer… some teams tanking isn’t something they are super excited to do. When Houston did it it was the right call… it’s just that they had already dug themselves a bit of a hole and then they didn’t nail the draft… yet… but you write em off and they land Wemby or Scoot… then what?

It’s just funny that we mock teams for choosing to tank when they fail and we mock teams that push all in and fail or that stay in the middle and fail… like this **** is hard and there isn’t a perfect formula. Houston is a cautionary tale about tanking but it’s also a cautionary tale of building around guys like Green and KP jr… who are stat mongers but not winners yet. There are a million ways to fail… pointing to teams like the Rockets and saying “look how ****** that’s going right now!!! Tanking is dumb!” Is premature and ignores that there are a million ways to fail. Everyone is heaping praise on a middle build strategy… which is literally how you get 20 years of meh like the Wiz have had.

You can hit on a lay lotto pick and it might work… but we also might be Wiz West for 3-4 years and culture will suffer under that strategy too.

 

[framer]

It’s just funny that we mock teams for choosing to tank when they fail and we mock teams that push all in and fail or that stay in the middle and fail…

Why the Hell would anyone mock a team that tries it's best to compete, then fails? That is what the sport is about. Of course you are going to mock teams that go out of their way to fail as a strategy then fail. They deserve that. I hope OKC never has success. I want Philly to never go to the finals. I want every team that adopts hard core tanking as a strategy to fail hard and lose fans. I hate the playoff push when the team that you are jockeying for position with plays a team that sits 4 out of their 5 starters. Some family paid money they probably couldn't afford to go to that game. I wish nothing but pain on the teams that adopt this strategy.

As far as Wemby goes, if we can't get him, I won't be torn up if he goes to a dysfunctional team that can't put stuff around him, like Dallas with Luka. Failing that, I hope he goes to a small market that regularly competes, like Indiana. Him going to Houston is probably the worst possible outcome for him personally.

 

[sip]

I mean they had a chance to draft Mobley... Green is fine but might just be empty calories. This is their third year in the dumps and if they land Wemby, Scoot, or one of the lesser talents they will have Green/Sengun/Smith Jr./Eason... and they have infinity cap space if they want to make a win now move. Their issue is they also have some picks out to OKC that will come due and will be ugly if they don't get better... but I wouldn't write them off just yet.

Also, what were their alternatives? Hold on to an unhappy James Harden? Win 35-40 games while paying James and then he walks in FA? Imagine walking into the middle of a house that was being remodeled and being like "well this **** looks awful!". Its supposed to look bad for a little while. Its okay.

No kidding. To use the rockets as a cautionary tale is pretty comical. They are only 2.5 years into what was truly a start from nothing rebuild. They basically had zero young pieces when the Harden drama started because they kept pushing their cards all in to win now with Harden. They had no other option than a total rebuild. So far they have done a pretty good job of assembling a collection of young talent. You mentioned a few of the guys but they also have Porter Jr who is 22, Kenyon Martin who is 22 and a few other extremely young prospects. Add in a very likely top 4 pick plus them actually being a solid free agent destination and things can turn around quickly.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No kidding. To use the rockets as a cautionary tale is pretty comical. They are only 2.5 years into what was truly a start from nothing rebuild. They basically had zero young pieces when the Harden drama started because they kept pushing their cards all in to win now with Harden. They had no other option than a total rebuild. So far they have done a pretty good job of assembling a collection of young talent. You mentioned a few of the guys but they also have Porter Jr who is 22, Kenyon Martin who is 22 and a few other extremely young prospects. Add in a very likely top 4 pick plus them actually being a solid free agent destination and things can turn around quickly.

People prefer smart teams I guess that try to win 3-4 more games a year by trading for Vucevic, Gobert, and Murray. Winning as many regular season games each year is the ultimate goal ya know. No one more ants to be a team like Memphis that rebuilt and permanently damaged their culture. They will never recover.

 

[sip]

Why the Hell would anyone mock a team that tries it's best to compete, then fails? That is what the sport is about. Of course you are going to mock teams that go out of their way to fail as a strategy then fail. They deserve that. I hope OKC never has success. I want Philly to never go to the finals. I want every team that adopts hard core tanking as a strategy to fail hard and lose fans. I hate the playoff push when the team that you are jockeying for position with plays a team that sits 4 out of their 5 starters. Some family paid money they probably couldn't afford to go to that game. I wish nothing but pain on the teams that adopt this strategy.

As far as Wemby goes, if we can't get him, I won't be torn up if he goes to a dysfunctional team that can't put stuff around him, like Dallas with Luka. Failing that, I hope he goes to a small market that regularly competes, like Indiana. Him going to Houston is probably the worst possible outcome for him personally.

The better question is why wouldn't we mock those teams that make a stupid all in move and fail. The bulls are the perfect example. They deserve to be mocked to death for the Vucevic trade. The sport is about finding the best way to compete for the championship and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a full rebuild if that is what is in the best interest of your team like we have seen with OKC and many other teams. Most organizations don't have the balls to rebuild correctly so they get impatient and make a so called win now move early in the process and it turns into a giant loser move.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The better question is why wouldn't we mock those teams that make a stupid all in move and fail. The bulls are the perfect example. They deserve to be mocked to death for the Vucevic trade. The sport is about finding the best way to compete for the championship and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a full rebuild if that is what is in the best interest of your team like we have seen with OKC and many other teams. Most organizations don't have the balls to rebuild correctly so they get impatient and make a so called win now move early in the process and it turns into a giant loser move.

another thing folks need to wrap their heads around... good culture and winning are not synonymous. Perpetual losing isn't a great way to build culture... I'll give you that... but 2-3 years of not maximizing winning (it isn't trying to lose in most cases just not using current assets to win as much in the short term) won't bury a team's culture.

OKC likely flips the switch... and has sort of flipped the switch a bit by not selling off guys like Dort when they had a chance to get some great assets... watch out once they do because they have a **** ton of talent and play super hard... they have a great culture and just need to add some shooting and a bit of a veteran presence.

OKC is the team to look at as the model... haven't had a ton of lotto luck but have a bright future and a good culture. Houston's problems are not necessarily because of tanking.

 

[Eddie Zero]

Minny will be in PO or at worst Play-in. I do not count on a good pick from them. The best for us is to see Lakers and OKC ( can dream) go in front of us.

a month ago I might have agreed, but outside of the recent win agains the Nuggets, what has made you think they will be any better if KAT remains out, or for that matter even if he does return?
I have them as the most dissapointing roster in the league right now having expected a top 4 team in the West this summer. Antman aint carrying them for the rest of the season, even if he does have a few more Westbrook MVP season performances. Unless they move some players asap they aint built for it this season. a lot of chemistry issues there.
I have them mid lottery right behind the tankers with a slim if any chance of the play in only if more teams like us pull mid season tank moves and push them into it

 

[seattlejazzfan]

People prefer smart teams I guess that try to win 3-4 more games a year by trading for Vucevic, Gobert, and Murray. Winning as many regular season games each year is the ultimate goal ya know. No one more ants to be a team like Memphis that rebuilt and permanently damaged their culture. They will never recover.

the culture thing is laughable. good players and good coaches win. culture be damned.

 

[framer]

the culture thing is laughable. good players and good coaches win. culture be damned.

Culture is downstream from coaching. I'd bet there is a correlation between coaches that are tacitly OK with tanking and "bad culture." Also good coaches and free agents generally shy away from moving to teams with bad culture.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Culture is downstream from coaching. I'd bet there is a correlation between coaches that are tacitly OK with tanking and "bad culture." Also good coaches and free agents generally shy away from moving to teams with bad culture.

Agree... that Pop guy in SA is a terrible coach... can't believe he is okay with tanking... multiple times... he will never have success in the league as a result. What a joke. Steve Kerr too! Bums!

 

[Eddie Zero]

The better question is why wouldn't we mock those teams that make a stupid all in move and fail. The bulls are the perfect example. They deserve to be mocked to death for the Vucevic trade. The sport is about finding the best way to compete for the championship and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a full rebuild if that is what is in the best interest of your team like we have seen with OKC and many other teams. Most organizations don't have the balls to rebuild correctly so they get impatient and make a so called win now move early in the process and it turns into a giant loser move.

Ever have been to a Bulls game in Chicago I am guessing not." If they only had a healthy Lonzo" I expect is the common delusional excuse from most Bulls front office staff. Yet even with decent play from Ayo, and some useful minutes, from White and Alex, they still cannot stop anyone in the paint. If they can find a rerasonable rim protector for one of their guards they can at least play spoiler in the first round with that much offense even though half the time they don't play any defense.
I can see something like Wiseman to the Bulls for a lottery protected future & Caruso + filler, being enough to get GSW to play and sell that Bulls fanbase, on a short playoff run with the expiring Vuc having to do less, and to build on next season, with the potential of a guy who has been completely unimpressive in GSW but still has a ton of potential. and he can protect the rim already.

 

[HermanG]

the culture thing is laughable. good players and good coaches win. culture be damned.

You cannot be serious. People lot smarter than anyone in here have written books about it.

Just because you dont understand what culture is doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that it doesnt affect people. There is no debate about its existence or relevance to organisations in human science communities...

 

[sip]

You cannot be serious. People lot smarter than anyone in here have written books about it.

Just because you dont understand what culture is doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that it doesnt affect people. There is no debate about its existence or relevance to organisations in human science communities...

It is all about the talent. There are a ton of mediocre teams with good culture every year. There are also tons of winning teams that had a so called losing culture prior to the switch flipping for them because they finally acquired enough talent.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Culture is important... culture is not dictated by one single factor. You can in fact rebuild... which includes lots of losing and still build a winning culture long term.

Tanking in no way determines that the culture has to suck.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

For the losing makes culture bad/good... please explain Devin Booker's career. Starts as a gunner... team loses all the time... toxic work culture. Monty comes in and things start to change... CP comes in and now they have one of the best records in the league and go to a finals. I would have thought the years of losing and toxic culture would dictate that they suck perpetually... cuz that's how it works.