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Our young wings and James Harden

Would you have traded Hayward, Burks, and the Golden State Pick for Harden?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 31.4%

  • No

    Votes: 35 68.6%
  • Total voters
    51
JJAS said:
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It appears that any time that Harden played was useless for evaluation. Either he was playing against bench players or he was relying on the magnificence of Westbrook and Durant. I'm still trying to understand your major point. Is it that Harden is overrated? Is it that he is a complete unknown? Is it that he will not be a top 5 shooting guard? Is it that we should be content with Hayward and Burks, lest we overpay?
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What I'm saying is that I think harden may not be worth Hayward, Burks and the GS pick! I believe either burks or Hayward have an opportunity to be as good as harden is. Not saying they will if I had to pick from the three it would be harden, but I just scared that he might be a product of his environment!!
 
Zulu said:
Hayward's first playoff experience stats...

7.3pts 2.8rbs 3ast
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I notice you're using selective stats here. Just admit that Hayward had a horrendous Playoffs. I think you lose credibility when you try to justify it as even respectable. Hayward played a painful 31 minutes/game.
 
Zulu said:
What I'm saying is that I think harden may not be worth Hayward, Burks and the GS pick! I believe either burks or Hayward have an opportunity to be as good as harden is. Not saying they will if I had to pick from the three it would be harden, but I just scared that he might be a product of his environment!!
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Fear is what will keep us from moving to the next level. It's always easier to just sit around with what you have, convincing yourself that you already have the same player and for cheaper. There's always the chance that he is overrated but everything I've said above is why I think otherwise. We'll see who was correct. Those who wanted to play it safe, or those who wanted to take the relatively safe chance on Harden.
 
JJAS said:
Fear is what will keep us from moving to the next level. It's always easier to just sit around with what you have, convincing yourself that you already have the same player and for cheaper. There's always the chance that he is overrated but everything I've said above is why I think otherwise. We'll see who was correct. Those who wanted to play it safe, or those who wanted to take the relatively safe chance on Harden.
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This I agree with, generally.
 
JJAS said:
I notice you're using selective stats here. Just admit that Hayward had a horrendous Playoffs. I think you lose credibility when you try to justify it as even respectable. Hayward played a painful 31 minutes/game.
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I admit he played terrible, that wasn't the point... It was that you tried to compare it to Harden's third year playoff run specifically the finals!!
 
JJAS said:
Fear is what will keep us from moving to the next level. It's always easier to just sit around with what you have, convincing yourself that you already have the same player and for cheaper. There's always the chance that he is overrated but everything I've said above is why I think otherwise. We'll see who was correct. Those who wanted to play it safe, or those who wanted to take the relatively safe chance on Harden.
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I'm not saying your wrong... I'm just saying I'd trust what we can get out of Hayward, burks and The GS pick then what we would get out of Harden!!! Only time will tell who is more right or if its a push!!!
 
JJAS said:
So basically it comes down to your confidence in Hayward and Burks, right? It might be there with them, but I have way more doubts about them than I do about Harden. I am not saying that it's a sure thing, it's just that I think it's worth the risk to take your team to the next level. After seeing what it takes to win a championship, I believe you cannot be conservative with your roster in a small market unless you lucked into multiple superstars.

These are the concerns I have for Hayward and I don't see them changing:
Hayward (general question about his shooting consistency, aggression, and mid-range game):
--SG: too big to get around screens etc. for a SG, and he is relatively exposed on the defensive end with faster SG's (Gordon, Wade etc.), needs a better handle
--SF: Despite being tall, does not have good length, he's little light, horrible rebounder, is not a "lock down" defender like Iggy etc.
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Actually no it doesn't come down to my confidence in Hayward and Burks. It comes down to my Lack of Confidence in Harden. I honestly think that Harden is going to struggle as the #1 option on a team. If I'm paying 15 million for a player I want it to be as close to a sure thing as possible. To me Harden hasn't proven to be the player that can take our team the the next level.
 
Ben10 said:
Actually no it doesn't come down to my confidence in Hayward and Burks. It comes down to my Lack of Confidence in Harden. I honestly think that Harden is going to struggle as the #1 option on a team. If I'm paying 15 million for a player I want it to be as close to a sure thing as possible. To me Harden hasn't proven to be the player that can take our team the the next level.
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If I were buying a car or a laptop, I would have the same attitude, but when was the last time the Jazz had the luxury of paying a certified "max player" a max contract that they did not draft? I can think of none unless you count Carlos Boozer, which I don't. The idea that the Jazz can just find a superstar/allstar and pay him "the max" is a chimera. Other means are necessary to acquire multiple allstars.
 
JJAS said:
If I were buying a car or a laptop, I would have the same attitude, but when was the last time the Jazz had the luxury of paying a certified "max player" a max contract that they did not draft? I can think of none unless you count Carlos Boozer, which I don't. The idea that the Jazz can just find a superstar/allstar and pay him "the max" is a chimera. Other means are necessary to acquire multiple allstars.
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Again I agree with this completely. You are spot on with what the Jazz need to do to get a Max player/ superstar/ Allstar. I just don't think James Harden is that player. I think he well struggle when defense is able to key on him instead of Durant and Westbrook.
 
What's your defenition of struggle? I have no doubt that he will put up 20 6 a and 4 with slightly worse percentages. He is top 5 at his position, but still don't think he is max in the new nba. 12 sounds about right. Weird that 4 million over the course of 4 years tore this team apart.
 
I'm right there with you Ben... I'm not sure Harden is that allstar #1 option player either!!!
 
Ben10 said:
Again I agree with this completely. You are spot on with what the Jazz need to do to get a Max player/ superstar/ Allstar. I just don't think James Harden is that player.
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I understand. My point is that these are the opportunities that the Jazz have to take: a young player, who already has an impressive resume, whose only knock is that he hasn't been "the man" on a team yet. We already know he will at least be a great player. At the worst, he is the number two behind Kanter or Favors, but we still have the option to trade or let his four year contract expire. However, if he turns out to be a stud, then we win big!
 
JJAS said:
I understand. My point is that these are the opportunities that the Jazz have to take: a young player, who already has an impressive resume, whose only knock is that he hasn't been "the man" on a team yet. We already know he will at least be a great player. At the worst, he is the number two behind Kanter or Favors, but we still have the option to trade or let his four year contract expire. However, if he turns out to be a stud, then we win big!
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It will be interesting to bump this thread at the end of the season and see if any of us change our mind!!
 
JJAS said:
I understand. My point is that these are the opportunities that the Jazz have to take: a young player, who already has an impressive resume, whose only knock is that he hasn't been "the man" on a team yet. We already know he will at least be a great player. At the worst, he is the number two behind Kanter or Favors, but we still have the option to trade or let his four year contract expire. However, if he turns out to be a stud, then we win big!
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Well lets agree to the method. If it was another player I might be completely on your side. For some reason after watching 60 or so games of Hardens from last year and a bunch from his first 2 years I just don't think he is a good as some others do. I could be completely wrong.

This is one of those times were I would just love to know what our front office position was on Harden. And were they would "rank" him in players that they would want to go after. And if they would have tried to make a deal like the one you are suggesting.
 
Ben10 said:
Well lets agree to the method. If it was another player I might be completely on your side. For some reason after watching 60 or so games of Hardens from last year and a bunch from his first 2 years I just don't think he is a good as some others do. I could be completely wrong.

This is one of those times were I would just love to know what our front office position was on Harden. And were they would "rank" him in players that they would want to go after. And if they would have tried to make a deal like the one you are suggesting.
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Fair enough. I'll be ecstatic if one of our wings proves me wrong and/or Harden sucks with Houston. We don't have his contract, so we'll make due with what we have.
 
dalamon said:
Zulu murkin all a dem bitches.
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Normally, the tingle you seem to feel in your testes as you engage in high-stakes forensic style basketball forum discussion produces self congratulatory quips that elicit at least a modicum of entertainment that, if nothing else, acts as a balm to the acerbic nature of the hyperbolic content itself. However, when this is projected onto another in an egregiously sycophantic manner it lacks this quality a touch, IMHO.
 
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JJAS said:
Normally, the tingle you seem to feel in your testies as you engage in high-stakes forensic style basketball forum discussion produces self congratulatory quips that elicit at least a modicum of entertainment that, if nothing else, acts as a balm to the acerbic nature of the hyperbolic content itself. However, when this is projected onto another in an egregiously sycophantic manner it lacks this quality a touch, IMHO.
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*testes
 
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