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Our young wings and James Harden

Would you have traded Hayward, Burks, and the Golden State Pick for Harden?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 31.4%

  • No

    Votes: 35 68.6%
  • Total voters
    51
dalamon said:
a) Does being an Olympian supposed to prove to Ben10 that you're considered a good first offensive option for a team? Iggy, and Chandler would like words with you.

b) Being one of the most efficient scorers ever, while playing next to two of the greatest scorers of the entire league (Durant being the undisputed #1) on a single team? Yup, still doesn't prove anything to me either.

Guys, Harden would have been a beautiful fit for our Jazz team. But please, lets not proclaim him as a perfect first offensive option without having seen him play a single game without Durant and Westbrook by his side. Have we all forgotten what happened to Dwill after he left Utah? And quite frankly, DWill >> Harden.
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There's no question that there is some sort of risk with Harden, but the Jazz are not getting him if he is a 100% proven star. You have to take more risks as a small market team if you are going to make a championship team unless you get extremely lucky (Malone, Stockton). He is a bit over-paid but not by much, that is to say, his performance over the last three years has been good enough to warrant a big contract. OKC did not pay him $60 over 4 years but were about to pay him $55.5, so even with Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka with huge contracts, they were willing to pay him $13.9 million per year. He is not LeBron, but look at the top two guards in the NBA and then ask yourself how the Jazz are going to ever get one. Answer, they're not. See the list of flaws I originally posted for both Burks and Hayward. I've already posted this, but here it is again.

These are the facts:
1. Championship teams have multiple superstars/allstars.
2. Championship teams have good to great coaches.
3. We have no current superstars/allstars.
4. The odds that all four of our youth or even two of the four are allstars/superstars are slim.
5. We are not going to attract a lot of allstars/superstars to our market.
6. We must, therefore, from time to time overpay, work through the draft (always difficult: Sacramento, Minnesota, Washington, Toronto, Detroit etc.), or use trades to get allstars.
7. Harden is in the top 15 wings and probably top 8 in the league at the age of 23.
8. We missed an opportunity to use our assets and expiring contracts.
9. You're going nowhere fast with middling players.
 
So what happens this year if Harden doesn't make the All Star team JJAS. Harden is not a guarentee to be a Superstar. He isn't even a guarentee to be an All Star. All of you statements above are completely dependent on Harden being the player you think he is. I'm not so sure he is.

I still think the Jazz (with there middling players) finish ahead of the Rockets in the standings. And might still have the better core of players and flexibility to continue to finish above the Rockets for years to come
 
I have to side with Ben 10 on this!!!

I was high on Harden until this years playoffs particularly the finals where he choked!!

I can imagine the game plan for an opposing coach, lets focus our defense on the sixth man of the year... Yeah right so much of the game plans for most coaches was to disrupt Durant and Westbrook... This leaves so much room for Harden to have the numbers me had.

Lets see has he does when it's Kobe and Lebron guarding him cause he is the only real option on the Rockets!!
 
Ben10 said:
So what happens this year if Harden doesn't make the All Star team JJAS. Harden is not a guarentee to be a Superstar. He isn't even a guarentee to be an All Star. All of you statements above are completely dependent on Harden being the player you think he is. I'm not so sure he is.

I still think the Jazz (with there middling players) finish ahead of the Rockets in the standings. And might still have the better core of players and flexibility to continue to finish above the Rockets for years to come
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Oh, there's no question that we have the better team and future with our guys than Houston. But when one has to make statements like that to feel better, you know you're not on the right track. Yesterday before the trade, I saw the headline "Rockets, worst in the league?" Here is the prediction not 1 day ago https://hoopshype.com/previews/houston.htm. My point is that if you trade Burks, Hayward, or Al, who we're not resigning, for someone who has played on a championship team, won the sixth man of the year award, won a gold medal, shows in every statistical category that he is and will be great, passes the eye test, can be ranked in the top ten wings without much hesitation at the age of 23, and has very few weaknesses, and looks like they could be top three in his position, then you take a chance on a contract that is actually not bad compared to Johnson, Kobe etc. He might not be an allstar in the future, but everything says yes. In a small market you have few other options, and I think this was as sure a chance as possible. You never know what might happen, but we will never get LeBron, Chris Paul etc. via free agency. I would have done everything to get him outside of Favors, Kanter, and maybe Millsap to get him.
 
Zulu said:
I have to side with Ben 10 on this!!!

I was high on Harden until this years playoffs particularly the finals where he choked!!

I can imagine the game plan for an opposing coach, lets focus our defense on the sixth man of the year... Yeah right so much of the game plans for most coaches was to disrupt Durant and Westbrook... This leaves so much room for Harden to have the numbers me had.

Lets see has he does when it's Kobe and Lebron guarding him cause he is the only real option on the Rockets!!
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So by this reasoning Gordon Hayward will never be a go to guy on a winning team. Hayward was beyond abysmal in the Playoffs, so we should write him off, right? Harden had a very good Playoffs. He struggled against the two best wings in the entire world (Wade and James). Harden is not Durant, but he is not going to receive Durant's contract either.

Here are his Playoff Stats /36 with a PER of 20.9

He's 23 years old on a championship contending team in the Playoffs
PointsRbndsAssitsStlsBlks3%2%FT%
18.65.83.91.8.141%44%86%
 
JJAS i understand completely were you are coming from. I'm not knocking your position on this. I just tend to disagree with how much impact harden can and well have right now. I feel that it is still up in the air. I also feel that we haven't seen what kind of player Hayward and Burks well turn out to be. You could be completely right and I might be out in Left field on this. But there is the possibility that Hayward and Burks develop into players that are comparible to Harden. I'm not saying this is a bad trade for us. But until Harden proves me wrong and becomes a superstar player I don't take the chance knowing what we already might have.
 
Ben10 said:
JJAS i understand completely were you are coming from. I'm not knocking your position on this. I just tend to disagree with how much impact harden can and well have right now. I feel that it is still up in the air. I also feel that we haven't seen what kind of player Hayward and Burks well turn out to be. You could be completely right and I might be out in Left field on this. But there is the possibility that Hayward and Burks develop into players that are comparible to Harden. I'm not saying this is a bad trade for us. But until Harden proves me wrong and becomes a superstar player I don't take the chance knowing what we already might have.
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So basically it comes down to your confidence in Hayward and Burks, right? It might be there with them, but I have way more doubts about them than I do about Harden. I am not saying that it's a sure thing, it's just that I think it's worth the risk to take your team to the next level. After seeing what it takes to win a championship, I believe you cannot be conservative with your roster in a small market unless you lucked into multiple superstars.

These are the concerns I have for Hayward and I don't see them changing:
Hayward (general question about his shooting consistency, aggression, and mid-range game):
--SG: too big to get around screens etc. for a SG, and he is relatively exposed on the defensive end with faster SG's (Gordon, Wade etc.), needs a better handle
--SF: Despite being tall, does not have good length, he's little light, horrible rebounder, is not a "lock down" defender like Iggy etc.
 
JJAS said:
So by this reasoning Gordon Hayward will never be a go to guy on a winning team. Hayward was beyond abysmal in the Playoffs, so we should write him off, right? Harden had a very good Playoffs. He struggled against the two best wings in the entire world (Wade and James). Harden is not Durant, but he is not going to receive Durant's contract either.

Here are his Playoff Stats /36 with a PER of 20.9

He's 23 years old on a championship contending team in the Playoffs
PointsRbndsAssitsStlsBlks3%2%FT%
18.65.83.91.8.141%44%86%
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Hayward's first playoff experience as a second year player!!! Try again!!
 
Zulu said:
I can imagine the game plan for an opposing coach, lets focus our defense on the sixth man of the year... Yeah right so much of the game plans for most coaches was to disrupt Durant and Westbrook... This leaves so much room for Harden to have the numbers me had.
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Not sure about the source of the stats, and I don't care to dig up his post to link to, but a dude on realgm posted Harden's stats with one or both of Durant and Westbrook and with neither. Harden's stats were much better playing with neither; IIRC, he averaged better than 30points/36 minutes on something like .68% TS when both Durant and Westbrook were on the bench.
 
Zulu said:
Hayward's first playoff experience as a second year player!!! Try again!!
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You could say the same thing about Favors, but he was arguably the best player on the team. We're not talking about a poor Playoff showing; we're talking about a horrendous Playoff showing. Had a PER of 7.1, had a field goal % of 18%, 3% of 8% etc. Anyways, this isn't about Hayward since I think he'll be OK. I was just giving you another example that doesn't hold true. Harden was 23 and had a nice Playoffs, so your original point was the one I was countering. Not sure what I'm supposed to "try again".
 
GVC said:
Not sure about the source of the stats, and I don't care to dig up his post to link to, but a dude on realgm posted Harden's stats with one or both of Durant and Westbrook and with neither. Harden's stats were much better playing with neither; IIRC, he averaged better than 30points/36 minutes on something like .68% TS when both Durant and Westbrook were on the bench.
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Also probably played those minutes with out Durant and Westbrook against bench players!!
 
JJAS said:
You could say the same thing about Favors, but he was arguably the best player on the team. We're not talking about a poor Playoff showing; we're talking about a horrendous Playoff showing. Had a PER of 7.1, had a field goal % of 18%, 3% of 8% etc. Anyways, this isn't about Hayward since I think he'll be OK. I was just giving you another example that doesn't hold true. Harden was 23 and had a nice Playoffs, so your original point was the one I was countering. Not sure what I'm supposed to "try again".
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I'm saying comparing Hardens third year in the league and third trip to the playoffs to Hayward's second year in the league and first playoff experience is a bit off base!!
 
PKM said:
GVC bringin the parade and Z bringin the rain .. sigh..
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RainDAnceBigJPEG.jpg
 
Zulu said:
Also probably played those minutes with out Durant and Westbrook against bench players!!
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Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It appears that any time that Harden played was useless for evaluation. Either he was playing against bench players or he was relying on the magnificence of Westbrook and Durant. I'm still trying to understand your major point. Is it that Harden is overrated? Is it that he is a complete unknown? Is it that he will not be a top 5 shooting guard? Is it that we should be content with Hayward and Burks, lest we overpay?
 
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