Please read this! SLC Dunk- Black Lives Matter

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Do they have to? It’s a specific movement against policing methods. I’m sure once some gains there are made they can look at other areas.

Nothing so arrogant, and racist, as a bunch of white people sitting around saying “well, those Black people have internal societal issues that plague most poverty-bound cultures, so they have no right to stand up and complain about police killing them every now and then”.

Let me guess, your also in the camp of “If they had not committed the crime they wouldn’t have this issue to start with?”

I’m white, republican, and live in Texas. I’m also tired of hearing these complete BS excuses. You know what else a LOT of black people so? Serve in our military. When I was in Iraq, I was embedded with an Army unit. Almost 70% black. My greatest mentors in the military (Colonels and Generals), were black.

I had a black kid from our ward house-sit for us once while we were on vacation. He made me call every neighbor AND have an HOA send out a notice 2 weeks prior, because he was afraid of someone calling the police on him and him getting killed.

This is about great kids who are, literally, afraid to live the same way that ANY of our kids can live.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I'm trying to understand the scope of the Black Lives Matter movement. It's a pretty broad phrase, to be honest, and I didn't realize it was focused on police brutality and violence by other people against black Americans.

As recently as 20 years ago, there were neighborhoods in the U.S. where literally 1 in every 3 young black men were getting murdered by the age of 23. To me, that's a devastating statistic that shouldn't be overlooked, but maybe that's a different topic.

 

[oneye]

Another nice thing I saw was all the local companies and the Jazz paid to have a full page Black Lives Matter ADs in the Deseret News and Salt Lake Tribune as well as the border at the bottom of both as well yesterday

 

[One Brow]

Wow! Spectacular! Thanks for sharing. It is incredibly reassuring to hear that some people still get it. I'm certain that the usual suspects are going to attack this piece. I will be interested to see where they believe the weaknesses are. On first read, I don't see them at all.

What would be the point of dissecting the stupidity?

 

[Utesnjazz]

The hat doesn't have anything to do with your skin color though. A black guy wearing a maga hat would get hated on. So would a white guy. So would a Mexican. And so on.


You get hated on for wearing a maga hat because that shows that you support a giant douchebag, not because of your race. Can't believe I had to explain that one.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

so it’s strictly skin color? Or is it culture to? Honest question. This is were things get convoluted to me.

By that metric George Floyd was killed for his skin color alone? Obviously not, again context matters. I can’t believe I have to say this but. You should never get to assault anyone for wearing any hat period. Just because you deem someone “racist” doesn’t give you the right to assault them.

It’s pretty simple let’s take all the evidence for each case of evil and prosecute accordingly.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Wow! Spectacular! Thanks for sharing. It is incredibly reassuring to hear that some people still get it. I'm certain that the usual suspects are going to attack this piece. I will be interested to see where they believe the weaknesses are. On first read, I don't see them at all.

I made it as far as claiming the only evidence supporting blm is anecdotal. That is a completely false statement. There were other false statements before then but that one is simply a lie. Scanning the rest there seems to be a slew of false information. Even the authors understand of what racism is false. They either don't understand it or are more likely trying to change it for their arguments sake.

They are using some of the same poor arguments that have been used a bunch and are easily shown to be wrong.

 

[DasJazz]

I've been thinking a lot and reflecting on comments here and on other social media platforms and this is where I am at...

Everyone, check it out...

Our nation is at odds, and we are getting this WAY WRONG. I'd like to provide some unsolicited advice for anyone that has the patience to read this.

Simple rules regarding this racial turmoil:

1. We won't all agree. Expect this going in. You CANNOT control another's opinion.

2. Time is a factor. Everyone will digest this issue at their own rate, weighing the issue using life experience, moral and ethical standards, and valued input they trust.

3. If you aren't a racist, and have treated every human with dignity and respect, YOU DON'T OWE ANYONE ANYTHING! Stop kissing boots, apologizing for things you didn't do, and pandering to Americans who aren't asking for that ridiculousness!!!

4. Racism is emotional for some, and for others it's a non-issue. That's okay!!! We don't need to feel the same to understand something, appreciate it sincerely, and want to improve its place in our nation.

5. Quit increasing the divide. Humiliation and toxic behavior doesn't expedite betterment in our race relations policy. If you have differing beliefs, no s$!@! That's why we're in this mess.

6. ANTIFA and BLM are BOTH lightning rods for our race relations process. You don't believe me??? Look at your FB feed. Regardless of what you think of them personally, they both ignite the population, not comfort it.

7. If you want open conversation, stop "de-friending" people and putting everyone down that you may have a difference of opinion with. There is a real weakness we have when it comes to tough subjects. We are the flight type, not the fight type. To get over this hump in our nation's history, we need ALL available voices. I do not want anyone silenced. Popular or not, our collective voice is more valuable.

8. If you feel that you will be judged, ridiculed, or hated for what's inside you....you will be...that's a fact. Be confident, and say it anyway. People are always looking for someone that is brave enough to say it first!

9. The media's sole function is viewership...well, and to push their agenda nowadays. We have ZERO apolitical entities broadcasting anymore. Misery sells. Hate sells. Death, destruction, and social upheaval sells! Don't think for a second they are there to benefit you. Their language, questions, and answers are designed to elicit an emotional response...and they're winning...and unfortunately, we are losing.

10. Your independent thought has never been more important than now. You must have a BS filter readily available...and please use it often. Do not allow anyone to force you into a way of being. Stand up, ask appropriate questions, and decide for yourself. We are only gifted if we aren't manipulated. The loudest voices aren't the smartest.

We walk around, either confused, angry, or indifferent about an issue that requires just a bit of human decency and common sense. WOW! If my 9 year-old can get this correct 100/100 times, we all can. Making this difficult is a YOU thing. Perpetuating the difficulty is also a YOU thing. Do not blame anyone for your own unwillingness to be kind. Lead by example...everyone.

Food for thought:

There are over 330 million people in the United States. Let's say 5% have racist tendencies...that's about 16.5 million people. If this number was reduced, in a generation, by half (8.25 million people), would this improvement ever be good enough? To think racism will be eradicated completely in our country is insanity. With that said, is there any number, over zero, that would be acceptable? I'll answer...no. So let's look at systemic policies, government inequalities, and legislation that positions our citizens on equal footing.

I think we all can advocate for that.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I made it as far as claiming the only evidence supporting blm is anecdotal. That is a completely false statement. There were other false statements before then but that one is simply a lie. Scanning the rest there seems to be a slew of false information. Even the authors understand of what racism is false. They either don't understand it or are more likely trying to change it for their arguments sake.

They are using some of the same poor arguments that have been used a bunch and are easily shown to be wrong.

He says that it is either primarily anecdotal or transparently motivated. You have evidence that proves that's a lie? I'd like to see it. Here is evidence that suggests the author of the letter is correct: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/puar.12956

There are numerous other studies that show this. There are also numerous studies that show that the police as a whole are doing a very difficult job quite well. That doesn't erase the horrors of a senseless killing like that of George Floyd, but the reaction is far out of proportion with the incident. Cops in general do not deserve blame for the actions of a cop like Derek Chauvin. What the author does exceptionally well, though, is lay out the reasons that the strategy that BLM is pursuing is not what we need. There is very compelling evidence that the welfare state approach does not work. It has never worked.

 

[vegas]

I thought I would post this. It was the most helpful article to help me understand what is needed that I have read. Period. https://www.deseret.com/sports/2020...-good-life?utm_source=ksl&utm_medium=referrer

I walk in a very different circle than most with very little conflict. There is a business book called "the speed of trust." I trust nearly everyone around me and they trust me, so we only worry about coming together to accomplish what serves both parties. Both parties save a lot of time and money in accomplishing our goals because of this.

Admittedly I am not first party to a lot of what is going on in the world right now. I don't know anybody first hand with covid and I can label one family I know racist. (I get that many would say that's impossible, but it's my opinion. I have no evidence otherwise.) I have always had black neighbors. I like to know my neighbors and we have always enjoyed each others company and supported one another. 3 years ago when Kap was in the media I often wanted to ask my Neighbor Charly about his thoughts and feelings. I really enjoy and frankly yearn to understand those around me. I never did, because I couldn't find a way to phrase it that I felt would be comfortable for him. Jazzfanz was the only place in my circle I could get any frame of reference there, and I have read lots of the material here over the years regarding race.

With all the noise, I have had a really hard time identifying the actual objectives. I read the BLM Utah and BLM websites and they had some objectives to get out the vote. Beyond that there are some vague categories such as defund police, police brutality, economic injustice, etc. Some of those could be really positive or they could be lead to the unhealthy and unproductive societies of the past world wars imo. I thought the article had some good clarity in discussing some of the problems and solutions:

1. Promoting Diversity. He was saying that it was very positive to have different races on campus at BYU because it helped people to understand. I thought this was great. I have many great friendships come of associating with those with different backgrounds and cultures than my own.
2. Police brutality. He mentioned he wasn't surprised, but that his church also has a great relationship with the police. I have to imagine police are like a wild animal backed into a corner right now and truly some are even quitting. I think it's toxic to stereotype any group this way and the stress it puts on people that are good exacerbates the situation. There are some things in police reform that could be quite helpful. I think mostly this has been helpful to know that some people live in fear of the police which needs to be resolved. In my cirlce this topic had never come up. I feel there are few details as far as solutions on this front, unless defund the police is meant literally to get rid of policing. I assume not as it would be a tall order to convince this country to support anarchy. I have heard the concept of redirecting funds, but what are the details, to what extent?
3. He had a great experience at BYU. I am not a fan or alum. I always thought the culture there was so weird in college. He mentions "the biggest incident" so he must have had multiple, but the idea that he enjoyed it there was interesting to me and doesn't fit the stereotype many people project there. Always nice to hear a spade called a spade.
4. Low income schools. I thought this was very helpful. It's an obvious one, but I don't hear it talked about much. We have lots of laws that try to give people that might be disadvantaged a leg up. I think it goes back to getting different folks together. There are some interesting development ideas that integrate low and high income housing. It's an interesting concept. This is a pretty challenging issue logistically, furthermore how do you justly choose what to do with who.
5. He gave a great explanation of being anti-racist and also mentioned his congregation cares about the things that harm their neighbor. When you ask somebody to have your back it's nice to at least give lip service you will have theirs. No fault to those that don't, but I think it gave this guy a lot of credence in my mind as I considered his thoughts.
6. He mentioned the disadvantage in the legal system for poor people. This is real and wrong. KSL had an article that it is being thought about today.
7. His explanation of Kaep. He is a Pastor and sells what he views as positive ideas for a living, but it's a good study on how to unite those who may not understand you to your cause. It's the first time I began to grasp what the concept was there, he was able to explain the concept was not to take away from the symbol of the flag representing freedom and liberty, but to say it didn't necessarily for work black people the way it should. I can't even restate here with the Eloquence of Mr. Gray.

I would love to see some discussion in specific policies or actions individuals can make in their daily interactions that could be supported that would have wide support. I'll start with one:

It's terribly hard to fire bad government employees (including police). Tenure can often dictate that a talented, highly productive new employee is fired, while a problem employee with tenure is retained. Even if you fire one, that same person may have preference to be hired and tie the hands of the hiring agency due to current rules over somebody who is a better fit. This teaches our bad apples to game the system rather than change their ways. I have personally watched 2 terrible example of this. I'm not sure what the support level for this is, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.

I wasn't going to mention this, but hopefully this can be helpful to do some uniting. There are 2 phrases with really difficult connotations for a large group of people right now. Of course this is about helping out Black lives, but imagine if the white people who were most difficult to convince all of the sudden were way more approachable and joined in supporting the change. The momentum would be quite powerful. I think that's more attainable than most believe.

• White privilege: What many white people hear is you don't work hard and your life is easy. I believe what is trying to be said is that an average Black person would have a harder time achieving success than an average white person. The oversimplification has made it a turn off and insult to many because of what they perceive is being said. Gray did a masterful job avoiding the negative connotation catch-phrase and concisely explained parts of the concept such as disadvantaged schools. All of the sudden there is no insult and the vast majority of the audience can't help but agree. He includes white people in his cause by going about it this way. He defaults them to his side rather than saying they need to change sides somehow.
• BLM. While I don't think this one is reasonable to be changed. To the ignorant it has a selfish connotation that the org only cares about blacks. I do feel its possible to further the black lives matter too explanation. Gray masterfully addressed this by saying "One of the things I teach our congregation at Transformation Church is this, to love my neighbor as myself means that I care about things that hurt my neighbor that may not hurt me." It's a pretty broadly accepted concept. I care about you and what hurts you. I need your help with this thing that is hurting me. I think BLMUtah does a decent job explaining this. It probably just needs a ton of repetition to overcome the connotation. Gray chose a pretty genius route to avoid the buzz word all together, but not everybody can get away with that.

 

[Ron Mexico]

He says that it is either primarily anecdotal or transparently motivated. You have evidence that proves that's a lie? I'd like to see it. Here is evidence that suggests the author of the letter is correct: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/puar.12956

There are numerous other studies that show this. There are also numerous studies that show that the police as a whole are doing a very difficult job quite well. That doesn't erase the horrors of a senseless killing like that of George Floyd, but the reaction is far out of proportion with the incident. Cops in general do not deserve blame for the actions of a cop like Derek Chauvin. What the author does exceptionally well, though, is lay out the reasons that the strategy that BLM is pursuing is not what we need. There is very compelling evidence that the welfare state approach does not work. It has never worked.

There is lots of evidence presented with the blm movement. Denying that it is provided is a lie or ignorance.

If you want to make the claim you disagree with their evidence that's fine. But that's not what the author stated.

A side note there are fundamental flaws with the study you linked to. I'm sure you took the time to read the hundreds of studies that show rampant systematic racism and not just tried to find something to support what you believe.

Here is a discussion about it from some experts that can talk about it more. They are claiming something no one in the field believes.



Heres a few:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YXExVA..&arc404=true&itid=lk_inline_manual_19

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3146057

https://www.aclu.org/report/tale-two-countries-racially-targeted-arrests-era-marijuana-reform

 

[idiot]

I thought I would post this. It was the most helpful article to help me understand what is needed that I have read. Period. https://www.deseret.com/sports/2020...-good-life?utm_source=ksl&utm_medium=referrer

I walk in a very different circle than most with very little conflict. There is a business book called "the speed of trust." I trust nearly everyone around me and they trust me, so we only worry about coming together to accomplish what serves both parties. Both parties save a lot of time and money in accomplishing our goals because of this.

Admittedly I am not first party to a lot of what is going on in the world right now. I don't know anybody first hand with covid and I can label one family I know racist. (I get that many would say that's impossible, but it's my opinion. I have no evidence otherwise.) I have always had black neighbors. I like to know my neighbors and we have always enjoyed each others company and supported one another. 3 years ago when Kap was in the media I often wanted to ask my Neighbor Charly about his thoughts and feelings. I really enjoy and frankly yearn to understand those around me. I never did, because I couldn't find a way to phrase it that I felt would be comfortable for him. Jazzfanz was the only place in my circle I could get any frame of reference there, and I have read lots of the material here over the years regarding race.

With all the noise, I have had a really hard time identifying the actual objectives. I read the BLM Utah and BLM websites and they had some objectives to get out the vote. Beyond that there are some vague categories such as defund police, police brutality, economic injustice, etc. Some of those could be really positive or they could be lead to the unhealthy and unproductive societies of the past world wars imo. I thought the article had some good clarity in discussing some of the problems and solutions:

1. Promoting Diversity. He was saying that it was very positive to have different races on campus at BYU because it helped people to understand. I thought this was great. I have many great friendships come of associating with those with different backgrounds and cultures than my own.
2. Police brutality. He mentioned he wasn't surprised, but that his church also has a great relationship with the police. I have to imagine police are like a wild animal backed into a corner right now and truly some are even quitting. I think it's toxic to stereotype any group this way and the stress it puts on people that are good exacerbates the situation. There are some things in police reform that could be quite helpful. I think mostly this has been helpful to know that some people live in fear of the police which needs to be resolved. In my cirlce this topic had never come up. I feel there are few details as far as solutions on this front, unless defund the police is meant literally to get rid of policing. I assume not as it would be a tall order to convince this country to support anarchy. I have heard the concept of redirecting funds, but what are the details, to what extent?
3. He had a great experience at BYU. I am not a fan or alum. I always thought the culture there was so weird in college. He mentions "the biggest incident" so he must have had multiple, but the idea that he enjoyed it there was interesting to me and doesn't fit the stereotype many people project there. Always nice to hear a spade called a spade.
4. Low income schools. I thought this was very helpful. It's an obvious one, but I don't hear it talked about much. We have lots of laws that try to give people that might be disadvantaged a leg up. I think it goes back to getting different folks together. There are some interesting development ideas that integrate low and high income housing. It's an interesting concept. This is a pretty challenging issue logistically, furthermore how do you justly choose what to do with who.
5. He gave a great explanation of being anti-racist and also mentioned his congregation cares about the things that harm their neighbor. When you ask somebody to have your back it's nice to at least give lip service you will have theirs. No fault to those that don't, but I think it gave this guy a lot of credence in my mind as I considered his thoughts.
6. He mentioned the disadvantage in the legal system for poor people. This is real and wrong. KSL had an article that it is being thought about today.
7. His explanation of Kaep. He is a Pastor and sells what he views as positive ideas for a living, but it's a good study on how to unite those who may not understand you to your cause. It's the first time I began to grasp what the concept was there, he was able to explain the concept was not to take away from the symbol of the flag representing freedom and liberty, but to say it didn't necessarily for work black people the way it should. I can't even restate here with the Eloquence of Mr. Gray.

I would love to see some discussion in specific policies or actions individuals can make in their daily interactions that could be supported that would have wide support. I'll start with one:

It's terribly hard to fire bad government employees (including police). Tenure can often dictate that a talented, highly productive new employee is fired, while a problem employee with tenure is retained. Even if you fire one, that same person may have preference to be hired and tie the hands of the hiring agency due to current rules over somebody who is a better fit. This teaches our bad apples to game the system rather than change their ways. I have personally watched 2 terrible example of this. I'm not sure what the support level for this is, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.

I wasn't going to mention this, but hopefully this can be helpful to do some uniting. There are 2 phrases with really difficult connotations for a large group of people right now. Of course this is about helping out Black lives, but imagine if the white people who were most difficult to convince all of the sudden were way more approachable and joined in supporting the change. The momentum would be quite powerful. I think that's more attainable than most believe.

• White privilege: What many white people hear is you don't work hard and your life is easy. I believe what is trying to be said is that an average Black person would have a harder time achieving success than an average white person. The oversimplification has made it a turn off and insult to many because of what they perceive is being said. Gray did a masterful job avoiding the negative connotation catch-phrase and concisely explained parts of the concept such as disadvantaged schools. All of the sudden there is no insult and the vast majority of the audience can't help but agree. He includes white people in his cause by going about it this way. He defaults them to his side rather than saying they need to change sides somehow.
• BLM. While I don't think this one is reasonable to be changed. To the ignorant it has a selfish connotation that the org only cares about blacks. I do feel its possible to further the black lives matter too explanation. Gray masterfully addressed this by saying "One of the things I teach our congregation at Transformation Church is this, to love my neighbor as myself means that I care about things that hurt my neighbor that may not hurt me." It's a pretty broadly accepted concept. I care about you and what hurts you. I need your help with this thing that is hurting me. I think BLMUtah does a decent job explaining this. It probably just needs a ton of repetition to overcome the connotation. Gray chose a pretty genius route to avoid the buzz word all together, but not everybody can get away with that.

Thanks for this post. I had seen that article, and was intending to go back and read it, but had somehow forgotten to do so.

While I think there's something important about calling out racism when you see it, I think it's also true that simply calling out racism has its limits. People also need to be met and understood where they are in order to hope to change minds (which will likely be a slow and frustrating process because not everyone is open to changing their minds). Pastor Gray seems to get that and embody that in a way that I wish I could.

BLM!!

 

[idiot]

PS -- for those who are willing to take some time to learn more deeply about racial issues in America, I recommend the second season (2017) of the Scene on Radio Podcast, "Seeing White." It comes out of Quin's alma mater (Duke University).

I know that no single podcast style is for everyone, but in my view this series has some very important perspectives on why our efforts needs to be more on institutional/structural racism, and why the impulse to think of racial problems primarily as issues of individual attitudes is misplaced.

 

[One Brow]

6. ANTIFA and BLM are BOTH lightning rods for our race relations process. You don't believe me??? Look at your FB feed. Regardless of what you think of them personally, they both ignite the population, not comfort it.

Just to pick this one, in particular: MLK was a lightning rod. Kapernick was a lightning rod. There is no way to visible protest against racism that will not be considered a lightning rod. So, being a lightning rod is a badge of honor for BLM, not a mark of shame.

There are over 330 million people in the United States. Let's say 5% have racist tendencies...that's about 16.5 million people.

"Racist tendencies" would be close to 95%.