I didn't misunderstand him, I was just stating that I don't think the coach is an excuse for anyone. There were players who played well and improved, there were players who played poorly and regressed. I think it's disingenuous to give credit to the players for improvement while blaming the coach for lack of improvement.
OK good then, I must have misunderstood that you misunderstood him. And I agree on giving the credit to each player and to do that in a fair manner. But like
fishonjazz and some other posters stated as well, you can't draw a certain line just at that point, Corbin is not a chemical material to apply to each players and get the same results from each one of them, or a command of a programming language that you write and all the players react to it symmetrically. The basketball itself is a vastly complex thing enough to make it realistic for our argument about Kanter-Corbin relationship to hold a possibility to be true. Even just Kanter being a big and bigs being much more vulnerable to the problems with the system, coach and the problems with the other players, can be enough of a factor to make him affected differently from another player, lets say a guard.
Yet, that's just a basketball example, this is however even more than just basketball, this is life, there are much more variables in this, like again
fishonjazz also wrote some of them. He made some very good points about Kanter btw, please take them into account and consider objectively. Especially the major issues like the injury he had, thence the wasted summer, his lack of total pt and game experience(it severely affects his BBIQ), a consistent and definite role in the team etc. You can even add the fact that he is still a foreigner and will feel like that way for a while more, until it fades out completely.
So all in all, do you really think it's impossible that a coach can affect his players differently and the players can show different reactions to their environment? I honestly think the otherwise, furthermore, I even think that it's possible for a proven-already player may decline horribly in a bad place where he is unfit with wrong people.
But anyway, as I couldn't watch the last season except a few games, I can't really point out particular players and tell you that this player played very good and this played very bad, but after my shallow look up, I couldn't see that Kanter was that horrible amongst the other Jazz men, at least stats wise. But take it with a grain of salt, I'm not arguing anything here, a player could be awful with not so awful stats too. Just wanted to let you know my state.
Apart from all those factors, there were also other issues he had to deal with, generally with the Turkish community and media. I believe that side of his problems didn't get noticed much by American Jazz fans. It was more than just the NT issues, there were serious political stuff and some of them could alter even his daily life. You know, he has relations with this cult that storming Turkey's all political environment and agenda and he's openly supporting them so he gets so harshly criticized by the Turkish fans everywhere on the social media.
As for the Kanter blaming stuff, maybe it's more obvious to us, so called Kanter fans, because we indeed are interested in his success as much as we are interested in the success of the Jazz. But, thank you for taking an action for that on your part and saying that you will be nicer with your words about him, even though there are much harsher and more rude posters writing with sheer hate about him.
Now, let me clear my stand about Kanter and just give an example of bad things Corbin did to Kanter, then I want to settle this argument even if we don't agree at the end, because I lack the time for it and I just have to do all this simultaneously within the other stuff I have to do. I'll be leaving this evening for my internet-less trip and my current internet keeps going on and off also, so I better write what I'm gonna write now before I lose it again.
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Anyway, I
was very high on Kanter. I used to think he would be a top three or a top five center in the NBA. But now, I am not that hopeful at all. I still think he will be a very solid big man in the league at the least and he'll be wanted by many teams for long years. But his ceiling imo, now is being a top ten center at most. He can have a few stellar seasons that can make him play in an All-Stars game one or two times, but that's about it. Nevertheless, I could be wrong and he might surpass that so I just can't know for sure obviously. But I have my reasons to reduce my expectations from him.
For Corbin... Hmm. I can say lots of things about Corbin. I can complain about his lack of leadership and motivating skills or the lack of the ability of teaching and raising players. But I think they are too apparent shortcomings of him to even tire myself about. He just didn't show any thing or any sign whatsoever to prove the otherwise.
Or I could talk about his stupid rotations all day. Giving up on Favors&Kanter duo far too quickly being the first. Actually Corbin and the Jazz did literally nothing to make that rotation to work. Because there was the easiest solution in their hands, "Hey Marvin, come on boy, I'll play you with Favors because I don't have the smallest idea to solve the problems of Favors&Kanter duo. You are the future of this them anyway." Bleugh!
I can also go on a rant about the playing time he gave Kanter in his rookie and sophomore years(and the quality of that pt), but I already know that you have pretty concrete opinions on that so I don't think we could agree on it. I could only say, even playing Kanter blatantly(not saying that was the ideal) with more minutes wouldn't hurt him much and certainly wouldn't make him a worse player than he is now. It might have made the Jazz worse however but we just couldn't convince anyone that it did not matter much for a rebuilding team, which was content with losing. The Jazz missed that chance and Burks and Favors also got hurt along with Kanter in that process. But they just had to it at the end anyway, in a much more embarrassing and low way that is called tanking but, that's a different matter. Anyway, to summarize my stand about the playing time, I'll give my opinion that I had from the beginning. I believe Kanter would have been a better player by now both offensively and defensively if he had been taken by the Cavs instead of the Jazz. We could have drafted JV and stash him a year like the Raptors did. Of course, again, I can never know for sure that too, but I feel that way and that's just my opinion.
But, to my mind, the biggest harm Corbin ever did to Kanter was, restricting his game. In a big way. This is actually just another subject that non-Turkish posters(or the posters who haven't watched the pre-NBA Kanter) can't comprehend as duly and accordingly as the people who have watched the pre-NBA Kanter can do so. I'm not saying this to knock anyone, it would be just because of the lack of the knowledge about Kanter's game before he came to the NBA. Still though, I had my doubts too at first, or rather, I wanted to give the benefit of doubt to Corbin back then. After all, he is the one who is a coach in the NBA, right. But now I've no doubt whatsoever that he indeed did damage Kanter and his game.
Enes was a really different player before the NBA, he didn't have only a mid range shooting as most of you guys know him in that way. Actually I am going to put some quotes here to describe what kind of player Kanter was. One quote is from me that I have written almost two years ago in PKM's personal forum. I'll do that only to show that I had the same thoughts two years ago btw, otherwise I could just write the same things in this post without any quoting. And the other quote will be from his coach Derryck Thornton from the Stoneridge Prep.
This one was a topic(09-08-2012) about Kanter's timid character and his restricted role on the team during his rookie season. PKM has made some pretty good points as well(he talked to Enes briefly) but I can't post it without his knowledge.
Enes has a dominant character, naturally. And also on the court, he has always dominated not only his peers but even his elder age groups. I was definitely shocked during the all last season. That was a different guy than the guy I know for the 2-3 years, on the court and off the court also.
Actually it began on the national team before the NBA season, you know in Turkish culture, age is vastly important, you can't even call your elder solely with his name, for instance, you have to add "ağabey" or "abi"(means elder bro) after the name if you're gonna call to your elder. And there was this "Hidayet Abi"(Hedo) on the NT, he and some other vets with him were all over the young guys, in the name of guidance and experience-help. Enes was giving overly meek and laid back speechs to the media and he wasn't relaxed and confident on/off the court, as his old-self. Whereas, he was maybe the best player on the NT, excepting Ilyasova.
I thought it would be changed when he got to the NBA but I think the situation of the Jazz team, the stacked front court and all, apparently forced him again to be the "laid back Enes" during the all season.
But now you say he's good again and has his confidence back, my hopes bloomed once again. Because I know that the guy can ball. He wasn't a dominant player just because of the low competition, he was playing with such a confidence, he was the main player of his teams and he was using his all arsenal all the time. He was enjoying shooting from distance. Mid-ranges, high post shots, pick&pops and even the threes. He was playing face to rim plays, he was even getting the ball way away from the rim and frigging dribbling to the rim for a dunk or lay up. And all these things only were helping him to dominate everyone inside the paint. But the last season in the NBA, he was shorn from all his repertoire.
All he was allowed to do was getting the ball at the very deep left low-post against the freakishly athletic NBA bigs. Of course, the results of this didn't help him confidence wise, all the blocks/turnovers etc. I still don't understand why Corbin didn't give him more space to play and free-pass to shoot, at least the high post shots.
From the Thornton interview, the link is
here..
Spoke with Stoneridge Prep coach Derryck "Tank" Thornton who coaches Enis Kanter (above), the Turkish star who verbally committed to play basketball at Washington.
(How did this happen?)
"It happened because of coach Chill (Raphael Chillious), the coach at the University of Washington. He coached this kid in the Jordan game. I guess he kept an eye on him and kept in touch with the kid and he was very familiar with the kid. He spoke to the parents. Washington came and struck up a friendship. The kid is phenomenal. It's a no-brainer to try to get the kid. And then Lorenzo (Romar) came and he met Lorenzo. And the fact that he was a NBA player, and the program, and the style they had, he made the verbal. And we're excited. Really excited."
(What type of a player is he?)
Enes is just very dominant big man. We just played four games out in Vegas and he probably averaged 34-35 and about 19-20 rebounds. He's amazing. He shoots the three. He's got NBA range. He's strong. Will finish around the rim. Just knows how to play. He had 23-24 points the other day and I'm being honest with you, I couldn't tell he had that many points. He's so unselfish. If it's possible to have an unselfish 48-point game, then he had one.
(Is he a true post or can he also play the wing?)
"He can do both. He's super comfortable at both. It's not like he's more uncomfortable with one other than the other. He probably averages 3-4 amazing dunks a game on people. So not that he doesn't want to play in the post, but on offense I got him out on the wing because he shoots it so well."
I know the kid is a great kid. I know he gave up millions so he can play ball in college. He had teams in Europe coming at him offering millions and he said no. He's very smart. He's picking up the language. He's doing great in class. He's phenomenal player. He's a lottery pick. He's a for-sure lottery pick.
(I heard he might go in the draft, but lottery pick?)
"His bad game here was yesterday and he had 30 (points) and 20 (rebounds). That was his bad game."
The main points that I want you guys to take from these quotes is the fact that his dominance was NOT solely because of his physical advantages. Because, first, the competition in the European Youth Basketball is not bad as most of the average NBA fans think. Plus, they certainly have pretty well developed players physically in almost every NTs. Some might go here for the argument that Enes was an early developed beast amongst the kids, it's wrong, dead wrong. Yes, Enes was developed earlier than some of his peers but no, he did NOT play against kids in the NT competitions. At least his opponents never lacked the length since the European basketball have always very tall bigs at all age categories.
Second Enes didn't play against only his peers, he has also played against elder generations where he did not have significant physical advantage at all. But guess what, he equally dominated them as well.
The third, and the most important one is, the rich playing style he had. Yeah, of course he sure did use his power and body to dominate but half of the basis of his domination was consisted from his offensive repertoire. He used to drain his mid rangers, especially the high post shots his eyes closed, he used to play TONS of P&Ps and P&Rs, and of course he had the threes. Occasionally he also used to do even face to rim plays from sides of the court and perform the three fake from down town and dribble to the rim for a dunk or an easy lay up, like Memo learned and did a lot in the peak years of his career.
But what happened to this amazing shooting big man when he came to the NBA? (Skip the ill luck of NCAA nonsense please in your minds) He came across probably the worst head coach he could find in the NBA and a completely crowded front court. The great coach Ty Corbin literally tied Kanter's hands, ripped him off of his natural talents/abilities, forced him to play a very strict and stupid role all season long. I was even getting surprised at some point, even when Enes was allowed to just touch the ball in the game. But Corbin is an NBA coach, he definitely knows the best obviously, right?. Yeah sure!
I often wonder about, at any point after he decided to forbid Enes from shooting, if it ever occurred to Corbin that he was doing nothing but stealing from the poor kid the one thing that could really help him to translate his game to the highest level of the Basketball in the world without losing his confidence, and the one thing that could support his other game dynamics. What an awesome coaching decision really!
The stupid left low post plays that were made for Kanter were equally tragicomic also, "Hey Enes, don't you dare to shoot the damn ****ing ball but, here son, here you go, go and try to post up this strongest and biggest athletes of the world, yeah go kid!" Then he only shouted and yelled at him after each blocks Kanter got in the post. Great motivator too. Amazing coach indeed!
If anything, he should have done the opposite. You give the green light to Kanter to shoot, tell him not to worry or panic to have the ball in his hands, use him in P&Rs and P&Ps, examine his repertoire and prepare appropriate plays for his talents, boost his confidence, show him you trust his all talents, make him to have the advantages of having a shooting threat, then slowly develop his post game and try to polish his fundamentals and footwork, and increase his responsibilities within a steady, consistent role accordingly to the production&progress you get from him. I promise he would bring his rebounding and decent defense(he was decent defensively in his rookie year anyway though) without anyone asking for it, if all this mentality were the case. But that was hardly the route they took. On top of everything Corbin hardly awarded Kanter for his good games and easily punished him for his bad ones.
I mean, it's really beyond me, Is there even another coach who limited his own player that severely? It's even further beyond me especially considering the fact that Kanter was a 3rd pick! Corbin just broke his confidence, made him question himself and feel like a scrub. He let his talents to get rusty and most probably demotivated him to quit his dreams of being one of the best big men in the NBA. Do you guys remember Kanter, that how he was full of confidence when he first came to the league? He had said that he has certain skills of Gasol, Dirk and Dwight. Do you people think he said that just because he was cocky or high? Or would you agree that he was truly believing in himself and wanted to make it a reality from the bottom of his heart?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxktbz5oaCs
Btw, ^^ there is nothing wrong in his words as he was just doing his "
being a dreamer, believer and achiever" bit. Some of you guys might think that Corbin just awakened a conceited kid into the reality but I just look at it from the other side as I knew Kanter's great talents all along and actually saw them in action in his games.
By the way, while we are craving for a Euro coach, anyone remember the
Tanjevic thread in the forum? You know, the one I made when Tanjevic called Corbin stupid. Please guys go to that thread and read it in the hindsight. GVC, you will find lots of bias and hatred examples against even an unknown guy named Tanjevic. Sometimes the things are not so much different with Kanter on this board. But I still don't want to give you the examples myself on that.
Anyway, I know I didn't address to some points that were discussed here in this thread after my posts. It was a good discussion btw but I'm writing this post just to give you guys a picture for how the things are seen/can be seen from my side. So, there is that.
Finally, I'd like to say, I want nothing but the best for both Kanter and the Jazz team. I started to follow the Jazz team and the JazzFanz board because of Memo, my namesake, so I was a MOF(Memo Only Fan) back then, but over the years, I became a mad Jazz fan and I'm definitely not a KOF(you got the drill) now and I've never been. Yes, I'm a fan of Kanter as much as I'm a fan of Utah Jazz but I'm not a bigot, if Kanter turns out to be a bust, I mean if he really does, I'll be one of the first ones to admit it and I would think, talk and act in accordance with it.
PS. If you feel any hatred towards Ty Corbin in this post, know that I did it intentionally. It's not my actual style, but it is just to point out how it's pesky and not really a noble thing at all.
