Pres. Of Baskettball Operations Says Interesting Things About Draft, Tomic, and Neto...

[fishonjazz]

How is that relevant?

What posters on Jazzfanz say about a player beyond their evaluation of his game is equally irrelevant. Unfortunately, no number of excuses can make up for Kanter's poor play this season.

I think coaching, system, injuries, teammates, and team goals (tanking) are all relevant.
In other words there is more involved than just what we saw from kanter.... there are factors that effect what we saw from kanter that most likely will be completely different next year.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think it's disingenuous to give credit to the players for improvement while blaming the coach for lack of improvement.

I think both things can happen simultaneously. Maybe corbin was better at understanding how to use and motivate burks and evans than he was with kanter.
im not saying that is the case..... but it is a possibility

 

[GVC]

I think both things can happen simultaneously. Maybe corbin was better at understanding how to use and motivate burks and evans than he was with kanter.
im not saying that is the case..... but it is a possibility

I'd love to see some examples of players whose quality of play was significantly affected by a coaching change.

note: Not sure Jermaine O'Neal is a great example, as he didn't get a real opportunity to play until he left Portland.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'd love to see some examples of players whose quality of play was significantly affected by a coaching change.

note: Not sure Jermaine O'Neal is a great example, as he didn't get a real opportunity to play until he left Portland.

And i would love to see you take your blinders off and get your head out of the sand...... Once you get a thought in your head i have noticed that you refuse to look at any other possibilities than your possibility.

You saw kanter play last season and determined that he is garbage and we should get rid of him. I am open to that being a possibility.

I am also open to the possibility that the kanter we saw last year might be MUCH different from the kanter that we see in the future due to coaching change, scheme changes, a change in his role, a more consistent role, a healthy offseason, better teammates, more maturity, more experience etc etc etc.

Maybe kanter will never be very good. There is a definate chance of that. It would be nice if you would listen just a little bit to your fellow jazzfanz though as well and just consider the fact that you might actually be wrong for the first time in your life.

 

[GVC]

And i would love to see you take your blinders off and get your head out of the sand...... Once you get a thought in your head i have noticed that you refuse to look at any other possibilities than your possibility.

You saw kanter play last season and determined that he is garbage and we should get rid of him. I am open to that being a possibility.

I am also open to the possibility that the kanter we saw last year might be MUCH different from the kanter that we see in the future due to coaching change, scheme changes, a change in his role, a more consistent role, a healthy offseason, better teammates, more maturity, more experience etc etc etc.

Maybe kanter will never be very good. There is a definate chance of that. It would be nice if you would listen just a little bit to your fellow jazzfanz though as well and just consider the fact that you might actually be wrong for the first time in your life.

I never said Kanter wouldn't improve. I never said context doesn't matter. I never said the Jazz should "get rid of him".

The "young potential allure" Franklin mentioned is pretty relevant here. Fans tend to think their young players' potential is limitless, and that any poor play or lack of growth can be blamed on minutes, role, system, coach, injury, baby mamma drama, etc. I haven't made a study of this, and I've only been a Jazz fan since 2003, but it seems to me that on-court play is the best predictor of future performance. With that said, if you can explain how Kanter's play/growth was negatively affected more than Burks' play/growth by his minutes, role, the system and Ty, and how another coach, role and system will make a difference for Kanter in particular, I'm incredibly interested. Providing examples of players who made huge strides only after a coaching change would also be useful. I don't think "because Corbin" is a valid argument by itself. Is it not just as likely that Kanter could play even worse under a new coach? Why/why not?

As for the rest of your post: In a discussion, I generally state what I think, and try to support it with relevant facts and observations. Of course I could be wrong. Would you prefer I add that disclaimer in all my posts? What purpose would that serve?

 

[fishonjazz]

With that said, if you can explain how Kanter's play/growth was negatively affected more than Burks' play/growth by his minutes, role, the system and Ty, and how another coach, role and system will make a difference for Kanter in particular, I'm incredibly interested.

Kanter came off a major injury and had his role on the team constantly jerked around.

Burks was healthy and had a consistent role.

Kanter started playing basketball at 16 years old and was not allowed to play any college ball.

Burks has been playing bball all his life and played 2 years of college.

Apples to oranges

Kanters sutuation is unprecidented. There is no historical situation exactly like his to be able to determine what will happen in his future

 

[franklin]

And i would love to see you take your blinders off and get your head out of the sand...... Once you get a thought in your head i have noticed that you refuse to look at any other possibilities than your possibility.

More refined thoughts are more sure because they have looked at all other possibilities. Accusing The Gay Vegan of having blinders on or not being open to new ideas because he's cocksure about something is as off kilter as it gets. Gay V is practically the definition of being open to every new idea.

 

[Tarkanian]

The fanboy logic is ridiculous.

fallacy detected.
a poster of your caliber does not need these jedi mind tricks.

 

[Tarkanian]

Kanters sutuation is unprecidented. There is no historical situation exactly like his to be able to determine what will happen in his future

There is this famous German philosopher Max Stirner, who was an anarcho-nihilist (word?)
According to him, every human being is/was unique and it is the fate and challenge of these individuals to reach their full potential.
signed
Secret Fraternity of the Philosophy Geeks for Kanter

PS: free association is an amazing thing.

 

[GVC]

Kanters sutuation is unprecidented. There is no historical situation exactly like his to be able to determine what will happen in his future

Assuming this is true (I don't buy it), what's the best way to evaluate Kanter and his potential? Is a coaching change and an additional year of experience a better predictor of future performance than current performance? Should he be completely untouchable? Is it reasonable to suggest that Ante Tomic, a very successful, mature and intelligent pro, would start ahead of him? Where do you see Kanter in 5 years as a basketball player? Why?

edit: Really what I'm getting at here is that excuses are always easy to find. They all deserve to be scrutinized.

edit #2 (for fish): I was being provocative when I stated "Kanter's garbage" earlier in the thread. I understand that this sort of language hurts people's feelings. I'll do my best to remove any exaggeration/humor from my posts (unless it's inane non sequiturs...), and stick to the facts.

 

[Tarkanian]

Is it reasonable to suggest that Ante Tomic, a very successful, mature and intelligent pro, would start ahead of him? Where do you see Kanter in 5 years as a basketball player? Why?

It is reasonable but not manifest destiny.
Tomic has been a promising player and has been successful on every level of basketball on Euroball fora, just like Kanter (personally) did.
Tomic has length and finesse but he is a giant toothpick.
Kanter has all the physical requisites to be a "big" in NBA, but brute existence does not cut it.
He, Kanter that is, has to figure it out and find his own way of playing, not Al Jefferson's! (I hope he is reading this. **** you Enes. You should have proven your worth already)
Back to topic, Kanter is not and has never been a lesser baller when compared with Ante.

add-on: Kanter has been an immature ***. Coming from a religious and wealthy family, he has to go back to his roots maybe, for a soul-searching.
I want my Enes in the trenches and my xxxxx in xxxxxx.

 

[fishonjazz]

Assuming this is true (I don't buy it)

Easy way to know if its true or not.

Can you give me an example of amothe basketball player who started playing bball at 16, was not allowed to play college ball, was drafted by a team with a rookie coach, had a major injury at the end his second season and was unable to train properly in the offseason between his 2nd and 3rd year, then had his role and minute change a bunch over the course of his 3rd year, and was playing for a tanking team with a lame duck coach on his way out?

If you cant, then there is a good chance that it is unprecedented.

 

[fishonjazz]

Is a coaching change and an additional year of experience a better predictor of future performance than current performance?

yes i think we will know more about kanter after next year than we do right now

 

[Stifle Tower]

yes i think we will know more about kanter after next year than we do right now

I think the same can be said of every player on the roster.

 

[Sexual Favors]

He **** the bed on the lane agility test at the pre-draft combine: Link

Link for p3?

After last week’s workout, Gordon Hayward reportedly looked great. He has improved every off-season in terms of strength, power and agility. According to their roster, he is one of the best agility and lateral speed NBA wings and is also is an above average jumper both from a static position and an approach.

https://saltcityhoops.com/how-the-jazz-spent-their-summer-vacation-at-p3-part-2/


I remember seeing something else last year, with more detail, but I am having trouble finding it on Google.



Also, on the Kanter topic, P3 had some very nice things to say about Kanter and the kind of work ethic he has,

One of the main targets they worked with Kanter on was his force explosion, in essence, getting back up to the basket quicker. They use the force plates to determine these numbers as was described in part one of this series. Kanter is one of the highest force athletes they work with as well as one of the strongest of all the athletes they have tested in the NBA. He currently owns the second best mark, for an NBA player, in their rotational power test. But above all the physical numbers he registered, they were most impressed with his character and perseverance. They shared his story of training in Santa Barbara while simultaneously observing Ramadan. During Ramadan, Muslims will fast from food and liquid from dawn until sunset. To keep up with the demanding training, Kanter would set his alarm twice in the middle of the night to wake up and eat.

 

[Stifle Tower]

^^
And yet, after all these years at P3, the Jazz players still can't shoot or defend. Guess I'm old school, but I remember the days when the Jazz were always among the leaders in team FG%. You don't need to jump out of the gym to make a lay-up, which scores just as many points as a highlight dunk. And rebounding is generally about positioning, not an extra 2" on someone's vertical. These players would be better off just shooting thousands of shots per day like the old-timers used to do.

 

[GVC]

https://saltcityhoops.com/how-the-jazz-spent-their-summer-vacation-at-p3-part-2/


I remember seeing something else last year, with more detail, but I am having trouble finding it on Google.



Also, on the Kanter topic, P3 had some very nice things to say about Kanter and the kind of work ethic he has,

Not to be a dick, but I'll go with actual unbiased measurements and what I see watching games over reports from a company paid to improve players' athletic performance. HUGE conflict of interest. Do you think Gordo is an above average athlete at the 2?

 

[Sexual Favors]

^^
And yet, after all these years at P3, the Jazz players still can't shoot or defend. Guess I'm old school, but I remember the days when the Jazz were always among the leaders in team FG%. You don't need to jump out of the gym to make a lay-up, which scores just as many points as a highlight dunk. And rebounding is generally about positioning, not an extra 2" on someone's vertical. These players would be better off just shooting thousands of shots per day like the old-timers used to do.

While I agree that shooting isn't valued nearly as much as it should be. I will also point out that having superior athleticism in today's NBA is how you get to where you want to be on the court to get your shot off in open space. The game is so quick. With the 3 being integral now, there is also a lot of space on the court to be covered, so the faster and more explosive players can get to the bucket quicker for high percentage shots, and also get out to the 3 to guard their man. Athleticism is a must in the now spread out half court set.

Shooting should always be a must though as well. I miss Horny. I think our team really needs a shooting coach, not just an assistant who knows proper form. Horny was perfect, and he obviously helped our players when he was here. He could work them through the intricacies of their particular shooting motion, and also helped to correct slight deviations that the regular assistant development guy might look over.hayward said he helped him a lot, and he obviously shot better when he was here.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Not to be a dick, but I'll go with actual unbiased measurements and what I see watching games over reports from a company paid to improve players' athletic performance. HUGE conflict of interest. Do you think Gordo is an above average athlete at the 2?

Agree. Jazz have certainly bought into the P3 hype. But has it really translated into significant improvement on the BASKETBALL court? And specifically, is there evidence that this improvement is better than what one could expect by just working out and playing pickup games against other pros, like so many other players do.

 

[Sexual Favors]

Not to be a dick, but I'll go with actual unbiased measurements and what I see watching games over reports from a company paid to improve players' athletic performance. HUGE conflict of interest. Do you think Gordo is an above average athlete at the 2?

I will acknowledge the conflict of interest, but you did ask for the P3 info I was referencing. Now it isn't good enough?

Could it be that the combine testing was a fluke? The kid was a very good high school tennis player, almost played that in college. Tennis players live and die by their lateral quickness.

As for him being elite athletically at the 2. When he came in to the league? Probably middle of the pack. Now? Yes. Easily. He is now able to explode past his man and to the rim in halfcourt sets pretty often. He used to need the break, or the ball swung to him on the weakside when his defender was slacking. Now, he just needs to step past his opponent and a little lane.

Young players can get faster and stronger. Hayward is living proof.