Pres. Of Baskettball Operations Says Interesting Things About Draft, Tomic, and Neto...

[Stoked]

You like to misinterpret, don't you?

I thought that is what was going on in this thread. No one on Jazzfanz wants to argue the actually point a person makes.

If you want to argue that there are better PGs then fine. B ut considering what Utah had then Burke was a fantastic upgrade over Tinsley, Lucas ansd Garrett. He helped this team win.

If you think that they will trade him out for Smart or Exum, you may very well be right.

If you want to argue if he will ever be an all star level player or not...well he is was a rookie on a horrible team so any judgement, either way, is drastically premature.

 

[Sexual Favors]

I do appreciate that your first foray into the stat discussion on this thread is responding to a post that fits your narrative.

And that's an interesting stat line. Can you tell me where you got it, Primetime? Hard to find rebounding rates relative to in year splits.

Huh? I've been discussing stats throughout this whole thread, and countless others. You just haven't posted anything I haven't already touched on numerous times. If you have something you want me to respond to, let me know.

 

[Tarkanian]

hey stop it.
this thread is Kanter-dissing thread.
Please be kind enough to open a new one if you want to diss Burke, too.
Thank you.
Now GVC, Frankling and Darkwing Duck and others; where were we?
yeah, that good-for-nothing Kanter boy...

 

[Sexual Favors]

I thought that is what was going on in this thread. No one on Jazzfanz wants to argue the actually point a person makes.

If you want to argue that there are better PGs then fine. B ut considering what Utah had then Burke was a fantastic upgrade over Tinsley, Lucas ansd Garrett. He helped this team win.

If you think that they will trade him out for Smart or Exum, you may very well be right.

If you want to argue if he will ever be an all star level player or not...well he is was a rookie on a horrible team so any judgement, either way, is drastically premature.

Always agreed with these opinions. Maybe reread what I wrote? He was the best we had, but is he the best we can have?we don't need an all star, but we do need someone who can defend, push the pace, and attack the rack. If he develops those skills, it will be awesome. But, those skills might be out of the question given his body type and lack of athleticism. I don't think he is horrible, I am just not sure he matches the rest of our team's strengths.

He could prove me wrong next year.

Anyways, this debate you and I are having comes from a simple comment I made in response to Dalamon that you read too much into. I didn't say Burke sucks like you seem to think.


I just said the Orlando buzzer beater wasn't as great as Dalamon gives him credit for.

 

[Sexual Favors]

It's below average for a 2.

Can you prove this? His p3 testing is rather impressive.

Not saying this is you, but sometimes the eye test just reveals what we want to see.

 

[Stoked]

Always agreed with these opinions. Maybe reread what I wrote? He was the best we had, but is he the best we can have?we don't need an all star, but we do need someone who can defend, push the pace, and attack the rack. If he develops those skills, it will be awesome. But, those skills might be out of the question given his body type and lack of athleticism. I don't think he is horrible, I am just not sure he matches the rest of our team's strengths.

He could prove me wrong next year.

Anyways, this debate you and I are having comes from a simple comment I made in response to Dalamon that you read too much into. I didn't say Burke sucks like you seem to think.


I just said the Orlando buzzer beater wasn't as great as Dalamon gives him credit for.

I think he has the ability to do them all. Will he? Time will tell, maybe he won't have that time in Utah if we draft Exum or Smart.

 

[Sexual Favors]

I think he has the ability to do them all. Will he? Time will tell, maybe he won't have that time in Utah if we draft Exum or Smart.

Then again, we could go small on the perimeter and have a dual PG backcourt and Hayward at the 3. Not sure I like Hayward's defense at the 3 though.

 

[Stoked]

Then again, we could go small on the perimeter and have a dual PG backcourt and Hayward at the 3. Not sure I like Hayward's defense at the 3 though.

Depends on who he is guarding. He would have problems with the faster and stronger SFs but the average guy he will be fine with. But I prefer Hayward at SG as well.

Maybe a Burke, Exum, Hayward, Kanter, Favors starting 5?

 

[Doublea]

Depends on who he is guarding. He would have problems with the faster and stronger SFs but the average guy he will be fine with. But I prefer Hayward at SG as well.

Maybe a Burke, Exum, Hayward, Kanter, Favors starting 5?

I'd rather it be
Exum, Burks, Hayward, kanter, Favors.

Though I would start with Burke and Burks and then have them fight for it.

 

[green]

I want no part of Kanter in any starting lineup.

 

[GVC]

Can you prove this? His p3 testing is rather impressive.

Not saying this is you, but sometimes the eye test just reveals what we want to see.

He **** the bed on the lane agility test at the pre-draft combine: Link

Link for p3?

 

[cowhide]

ew. You can shoot like **** and increase your PER by taking more shots. Someone on the team has to collect rebounds and assists. PER is terrible, especially when judging high usage players on bad teams.

And fwiw, I'm not looking at stats alone. I'm trying to evaluate the players based on skills, progress, potential roles they could fill on a good team.

Gordo isn't an offensive hub OR a perimeter stopper.

Favs has yet to show that he's a great post defender, but has shown an ability to protect the rim and defend the pick and roll well. He's not an on-ball scorer, and his mid-range game is still suspect. As such, he'll probably always be a bit of an offensive liability. He needs to be a bit nastier defensively.

Kanter has decent touch and footwork. Not convinced his bully ball or passing will ever be good enough that you can run the offense through him. Should be able to provide some spacing. He seems completely disinterested on defense, with his hands at his side when defending in space.

Burks looks likes he can be an adequate 6th man. His improved spot-up shooting this season also makes it possible for him to be effective off-ball (this was absolutely HUGE for his development). Lack of strength and a propensity to ball watch make him a liability on defense.


This team still needs a couple players you can run the offense through, a perimeter stopper or two, and a bit more shooting. I don't see the above players providing that. I'd move Gordo and Kanter if it brought back one or two players who could fill key roles.

Well when you are a half empty glass kind of a person, then I guess I can see your points. However, I would rather be a little more patient, right now I see the glass half full. I do see issues but hopefully guys will get better. Sometimes I think people forget that even the great S&M played like crap sometimes. Our oldest starter is 23-24 years old.

 

[cowhide]

I read somewhere today that Payton held his own against Smart yesterday in Sactown.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

He **** the bed on the lane agility test at the pre-draft combine: Link

Link for p3?

Hayweird has an impressive wingspan.

 

[GVC]

Well when you are a half empty glass kind of a person, then I guess I can see your points. However, I would rather be a little more patient, right now I see the glass half full. I do see issues but hopefully guys will get better. Sometimes I think people forget that even the great S&M played like crap sometimes. Our oldest starter is 23-24 years old.

Gordo's a free agent this summer, Burks and Kanter are free agents next summer. There is a salary cap in the NBA. You lock up players for too much, you can end up stuck with them AND over the cap, unable to improve the team. We're hitting the point where decisions have to be made on all these players. You need elite talent to win in the NBA, and I don't see it on the Jazz's roster.

 

[Jazz4ever]

He **** the bed on the lane agility test at the pre-draft combine: Link

Link for p3?

THat's pretty awful. At the same time defense is 70% instincts and reaction rather than a pre scripted test running around cones. Otherwise you could make the case Doug McDermott could play shooting guard with his excellent 11.10 score. Jimmer was third best at the 2011 combine at 10.42, but can't stay in front of a wooden door.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I will admit that I am harder on Trey than the others, but it's because I see his game as being a detriment to our roster, not a positive. Trey was drafted as a "safe pick," and not a "potential pick." I felt like his pace would be too slow, he'd be undersized, he didn't have the athleticism to overcome his body, is unable to attack the rim and draw fouls, and has a me first attitude to the PG position.

On the plus side, he is good in the PnR and has a very low TOV rate.

I am firm believer that this team needs to get out and run, and that defense starts with the PG. Trey hasn't shown the ability to offer either of these qualities. I would rather have him able to attack the rim and draw fouls than be able to shoot big shots (especially when the rest of his shooting is at a subpar %). The big shot might decide a close game, but it is the other things that make the game close i. The first place.

Also, as the PG, everyone is dependent on him for their success.

Maybe he'll make the big jump he made in college from year one to year two, but for a prospect like Trey, it isn't something you can count on. Trey has played a lot more basketball than Kanter, being coached the whole way, and his upside and window for improvement is a lot smaller.

Having said this, he will get better, and he doesn't need to be an all star for us, but he does need to defend a hell of a lot better so everyone else can, needs to play at a pace that matches our strength's, and needs to look for others more than himself. He has the ability to be a great facilitator, but his ego gets in his way at times.

are you ****in high?

 

[Archie Moses]

are you ****in high?

Dude, his post was solid. High people must have high bball iq.

 

[Tarkanian]

are you ****in high?

^
this, is not a reply but a fallacy ad hominem.

 

[ema]

He hasn't proven but he has shown great signs for it. Enes can always be in top 20 at rebounds in the NBA and his ceiling is up to the top 5.

He was in top ten in his rookie year and top 25 in his second year. The most plausible reason for his drop in his third year is obviously his injury. He was always an elite rebounder all his career long including his rookie year in the NBA. So I believe that there is no reason for him to get it back again.

I think using his injury as an excuse for his rebounding is wishful thinking.

Kanter has NEVER been in the top ten in the NBA in defensive or total rebound rate category.

OK, my rankings weren't for Reb Rate category, they were per 48, I read your post and wrote that in a hurry. But they are not totally worthless rankings either.

Still, with very slight adjustments, he was in top ten in the REBR category too in his rookie year. Actually it is, if you only use a better pt variable for players qualification. ESPN requires only 6 mins pt over 82 games, make it as 10 mins and 30 or 40 games minumum and he is 10th or 12th in his rookie year. Furthermore, being 17th in ESPN's and Hollinger's list isn't bad either for a rookie.

He's been in top 10 in offensive rebound rate, which isn't nearly as important as defensive rebounding. Kanter was 59th this year in defensive rebounding rate.

Do you know where he ranked the previous year? You know, before the injury? 89th. His first year was his best year both in raw number and ranking, and he was 37th in the league.

He's NEVER been a great defensive rebounder, pre nor post injury.

Wow, offensive rebounding is NOT NEARLY as important as defensive rebounding? It is definitely debatable for certain aspects of the game, that which one is more important, the defensive rebounds or the offensive rebounds. But the result of that debate can not be "not nearly important" for either one. To me the offensive rebounding is at least equally important and valuable as defensive rebounding, if not even more since the offensive rebounds and having that ability is rarer. And for the sake of the argument, pulling offensive rebounds is the harder one out of the two. Because the defensive rebounding is much more of a team work whereas you're mostly on your own in offensive rebounding.

So, I don't find it much genuine to focus solely on the defensive rebounding all of a sudden and dissing the offensive rebounding for the sake of your argument and to make a basis for it.

Anyway, for the Pre-NBA of Kanter, no one has any doubt whatsoever about his more than great(elite) rebounding. For the NBA, I believe everyone would agree that he's a solid rebounder all around and a tremendous rebounder on the offensive side. As for the defensive side, like I said, it's much more of a team issue. The Jazz were always decent when it comes to rebounding. The rankings you gave(14 and 16) for the last year were actually the worst of the team for the last recent years. Before that the Jazz were 12th at REBR and were 3rd in the rookie year of Enes. That fact can also be interpreted as the team has decent rebounders and players share the rebounding. Plus, Enes was never the primary rebounder on the team, not yet at least. I can't say anything for the last season, because I haven't watched it, but the previous seasons I could swear that Enes was boxing out much more for his teammates than he was doing for himself.

Nevertheless, I never said he's proven as a great rebounder in the NBA yet and it's an undeniable fact that he regressed rather than progressing at rebounding. I know his boxing out got broken in a weird way(we joked a lot about it as, he found religion so he doesn't recline his *** to other men anymore) and he lacked the effort on the glass. But I'm standing behind my opinion that his upside is the elite level at rebounding even in the NBA. He has it at least as his potential and has shown enough signs for that he can realize that potential. Elite won't happen for sure if he focuses on the offensive side of his game more in the future but I've no doubt that he'll be always solid and can really be great if he wants it.

Edit: Maybe we should ask, why? A player that dominated everyone with his rebounding until he came to the NBA, and showed in his rookie year that he can do a great job at that in the NBA too, did not progress and contrarily regressed. A player who is a force at offensive rebounds in the top basketball league in the world just can not pull defensive rebounds as much as successfully. I'm sensing there is more things to it and it's not only and entirely on Kanter's shoulders.