Public land issues

[fishonjazz]

Preserving our open space, wildlife, and wild lands does not require locking them up. This state though has proven it is more interested in economic value over any recreational or wild value the land has. For some reason people in Utah don't vote out the individuals who decide to develop, develop, develop in spite of all the damage it has done. The sad part is, most people love our mountains, love our wildlife, love our national parks, and live in an urban setting (Provo clear to Ogden) and don't understand that the majority of those they vote for that are republican are trying to destroy and take all of those things and turn them into cash for them and their friends. I get that we need economic development, but at some point as a society and as a human population we have to find the value in places that are untouched, that won't be developed, that won't be traded for worthless numbers in a bank account and be forever lost. Once land is developed or sold there is no going back. I am for wise energy development, wise housing development, and wise industry development. Tourism in Utah isn't driven by oil rigs scattered across the landscape, it isn't driven by the houses eating up what is left of the wasatch front winter range for wildlife, it isn't "no trespassing signs, it is the beauty of our landscape and the untouched essence of it. Even the ski industry in Utah needs to consider the surroundings and realize development will scar the reason many people come here for that reason. The wasatch front at some point has to find better paths of growth. The benches for wildlife winter range are gone, the wetlands of the GSL are being destroyed, and the agricultural land is going to be all but a memory soon. If you want to watch more development, less access, and more wasted tax dollars, this transfer idea is for you. If you value our states landscapes, wildlife, and access to our great public lands, then start voting those with this ideology out of office and stand against this.

Great post

 

[fishonjazz]

a total haymaker. lol.

This.
Siro killed it with that post

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm not really sure what side you are for, you seem to be pretty in the middle on the subject. This state does have a lot of public land.... And it's great. If their wasn't so much public land our state officials would have sold it, developed it, or destroyed it for greedy interests. Utah is good at economic development sure, but they are terrible at conservation. They are terrible at seeing anything but greed. Our politicians can only find dollar signs in our amazing resources in this state, to me they mean more than that. I realize it isn't a full Democratic or Republican thing, but no democrats support it and very few republicans oppose it, this issue lies largely along party lines, there's exceptions sure.

I don't care what Utah HAS done, I care about what they are doing and plan on doing. Just because they've done good on some issues does not mean they get a pass on spending tens of millions of dollars to steal public lands from 320 million Americans that are equal owners. Public lands are doomed if greedy politicians get to call the shots and it's a cold dead hands issue for me. Look at the Wasatch front, all land has is economic value. Hundreds of thousands of acres of vital wildlife habitat winter range have been bulldozed over and lost forever. Homes have been built higher than they ever should have. Thank god the forest service line is saving some of what's left. I get we are going to grow, but we can find ways to grow while preserving our wildlife habitat, wild places, and important natural resources our state has.

A big problem is as a society we have become to set apart from these issues. The majority of our public cares about our mountains, our wetlands, our wildlife and wild places, but they don't understand the issues they face, the complications we create, and are disconnected from those resources. I'm not an environmentalist by any means but I am a conservationist and a hunter. I understand these places and am much closer connected to these lands than the politicians pushing forward an agenda to sale and strip whatever profit they can from them. They don't understand how important these lands are to our wildlife, our economy, and our quality of life. We along with our wildlife cannot afford to lose these public lands. I'm sorry but worthless peace of paper to me, aren't worth more than a bugling bull elk, a mule deer, a bighorn sheep, a flock of ducks or geese, or just the opportunity to go to a place that isn't surrounded with people and smog. Theodore Roosevelt was one of the greats and contributed so much to this country and the world with these public lands he helped create and the idea of conservation he embraced. I won't stand by and let greedy politicians play games with my money and public land they should have nothing to do with.

Here's a few quotes from Roosevelt as it pertained to the future and the obstacles he knew we would face:

"Wildlife and it's habitat cannot speak, so we must and we will."

"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance."

These are important places to us and our wildlife, and I will stand up for these places and there futures. Future generation should not look back at us and see us as the generation who sold and destroyed one of the best treasures our country has. Vote those for this stupid idea out, and tell congress to fund conservation at the level it should be, because 1% on an industry that returns $646 billion back to economy simply isn't cutting it. Is pretty damn easy to make the federal managers look bad when you vote to cut their budgets constantly. The department of the interior (BLM,USFWS) is still operating on the same spending power as it was 20 years ago.

All of Utah cares.. But there's some acceptable balance. You appear to have slipped to the dark side of hate. Utah might be better served to have your passion for it have a healthier, less lopsided, understanding and acceptance of a sustainable growth plan.

Yes, I am firmly in the middle. I am a fairly large developer as well as a conservationist and lover of Utah's outdoors.

 

[one eye]

All of Utah cares.. But there's some acceptable balance. You appear to have slipped to the dark side of hate. Utah might be better served to have your passion for it have a healthier, less lopsided, understanding and acceptance of a sustainable growth plan.

Yes, I am firmly in the middle. I am a fairly large developer as well as a conservationist and lover of Utah's outdoors.

I haven't slipped to the "dark side" I've just gotten tired of what I've seen. I've gotten tired of a state that fights every step of conservation. I've gotten tired of republicans trying to undercut clean water, wildlife, and wild landscapes. The sage grouse doesn't get listed, so now they are trying to attatch riders on budget bills to put off conservation that is beneficial not only to sage grouse but mule deer, elk, bighorns, pronghorn, and everything else that lives among them. I watched $2 million go to Ryan Benson and SFW's hacks for "sage grouse lobbying". I watched $8 million go towards wolf lobbying that accomplished nothing but these same individuals greasing their pockets with my tax money. I've watched even the state division of wildlife resources try to rig the game so certain "non-profit" groups are favored over others for public resources. Then stupid ideas like this land transfer idea are born in this backward state. It is very frustrating to watch what's happened just over the last 4 years. I'm fed up with these representatives getting a pass because Utah voters are unintelligent and uninterested in voting for the represenatives, not the party.

To me I used to belive in some of these people, then I found out who they are and how wasteful they have been. They complain and point fingers at the feds for all their problems, all the while throwing our tax dollars down bottomless pits to keep some people in a job and to make a career out of these issues. Ken Ivory has made hundreds of thousands on this public land issue, do you really think he wants it to end? The feds have been waiting on Utah to sue so they can hand them their teeth at the courtroom steps and get this over with, they know Utah has no ground to stand on. I've grown tired of a party who has been praised heavily in this state and has done very crooked things and are just as wasteful as the feds on a smaller scale.

Like I said in earlier posts, I am not against development, but we can have wise development. Not every alfalfa field needs to be asphalted over, not every mule deer winter range needs to become housing, the GSL wetlands are like nothing else in this nation, they should be protected not drained and bulldozed over. We can grow without ruining all the things that make this state great. With the population explosion we are about to see over the next 20-30 years it's time to start putting some of these things on the higher priority list and protecting some of these places that developers and politicians can find no value in but cash. I've grown so tired of people like Rob Bishop,Mike Lee, Ken Ivory, and local county commissioners that I hope Obama does use his executive authority to pen in another national monument in this state. That's something I normally wouldn't support, but we have proven we can't take care of, or take decent measures to protect important areas or threatened species in this state.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I haven't slipped to the "dark side" I've just gotten tired of what I've seen. I've gotten tired of a state that fights every step of conservation. I've gotten tired of republicans trying to undercut clean water, wildlife, and wild landscapes. The sage grouse doesn't get listed, so now they are trying to attatch riders on budget bills to put off conservation that is beneficial not only to sage grouse but mule deer, elk, bighorns, pronghorn, and everything else that lives among them. I watched $2 million go to Ryan Benson and SFW's hacks for "sage grouse lobbying". I watched $8 million go towards wolf lobbying that accomplished nothing but these same individuals greasing their pockets with my tax money. I've watched even the state division of wildlife resources try to rig the game so certain "non-profit" groups are favored over others for public resources. Then stupid ideas like this land transfer idea are born in this backward state. It is very frustrating to watch what's happened just over the last 4 years. I'm fed up with these representatives getting a pass because Utah voters are unintelligent and uninterested in voting for the represenatives, not the party.

To me I used to belive in some of these people, then I found out who they are and how wasteful they have been. They complain and point fingers at the feds for all their problems, all the while throwing our tax dollars down bottomless pits to keep some people in a job and to make a career out of these issues. Ken Ivory has made hundreds of thousands on this public land issue, do you really think he wants it to end? The feds have been waiting on Utah to sue so they can hand them their teeth at the courtroom steps and get this over with, they know Utah has no ground to stand on. I've grown tired of a party who has been praised heavily in this state and has done very crooked things and are just as wasteful as the feds on a smaller scale.

Like I said in earlier posts, I am not against development, but we can have wise development. Not every alfalfa field needs to be asphalted over, not every mule deer winter range needs to become housing, the GSL wetlands are like nothing else in this nation, they should be protected not drained and bulldozed over. We can grow without ruining all the things that make this state great. With the population explosion we are about to see over the next 20-30 years it's time to start putting some of these things on the higher priority list and protecting some of these places that developers and politicians can find no value in but cash. I've grown so tired of people like Rob Bishop,Mike Lee, Ken Ivory, and local county commissioners that I hope Obama does use his executive authority to pen in another national monument in this state. That's something I normally wouldn't support, but we have proven we can't take care of, or take decent measures to protect important areas or threatened species in this state.

Here is my flagship development.
What do you think about how we developed while preserving the lava flows?

Golfentrada.com

 

[one eye]

Here is my flagship development.
What do you think about how we developed while preserving the lava flows?

Golfentrada.com

I actually think you did quite well. I like the open and natural feel you've kept for the landscape. The problem other places around the state is high density development is eating up vital places to our wildlife. Take the mule deer for example. You see them across the whole state, you see a lot of them. It's hard to imagine what real trouble they are in, right? The problem is over the past few decades they have struggled worse than almost any other big game species. They have been in decline for some time now. Sure you have winters that don't kill as many, but overall we are on a roller coaster ride and the peaks are getting smaller and the valleys are getting longer. When do we eventually bottom out and the ride ends? Mule deer along with many wildlife (i.e. Sage grouse) are very sensitive to habitat loss and habitat fragmentation. They need migration corridors and they need winter range. The wasatch front just got hit with about 2 feet of snow. The winter range is developed and the deer will have to find a way to survive without what should naturally be there for a situation such as that. we have to consider that every road, every subdivision, every acre of winter range we cover in asphalt we are losing ground that we will never get back. It should be done in ways that vital migration corridors are protected and ranges that our wildlife depend on are kept in tack. The GSL is vital to waterfowl during there migration and should be protected as such. This state has shown very little interest in paying attention to these things and that's why I would and will never support them getting this land transferred to them. People don't think about wildlife enough or the great economic and environmental impacts they have. I don't hunt because I have to, I would eat fine if I didn't. I hunt to have a connection to my food which the larger portion of Americans have lost their link to. Do you know how much more environmentally friendly a wild animal is to harvest and consume than the amount of food, land, water, and carbon emission is needed to raise a domestic cow? Wildlife and wild land are looked at as a luxury not a necessity and it shouldn't be that way. If tomorrow wildlife were gone, you would have to replace literally the millions of tons of high quality protein they provide every year that people eat. You would have to replace it with much less environmentally friendly and costly factory/production farm grown food. The impacts of these wild landscapes and wildlife aren't given the credit they are deserved and aren't shown the value they provide. I just hope one day we can see it as a society. That is my worry. The Feds aren't great but they aren't the enemy either. I would rather work with the devil I know what to expect from than the devil I don't. The Feds have managed the lands at a decent rate, the state has proven it is not up for the challenge and I'm not going to watch millions of acres be transferred to an entity that has proven what it will do with the little land they do control.

 

[babe]

i think you lost him.

Nobody who cares about something is really lost.

As Ambrose Bierce put it:

To one who is lost in the night and fog, mired neck-deep in an unwholesome bog, Experience, like the rising of the dawn, reveals the path he should not have gone.

 

[babe]

So, anyway, sounds like we have some devoted acolytes of the SUWA/Sierra Club, and other groups well-endowed by corporate donations, pushing to lock up the West, the whole world for that matter. What drives the donations and the positive media for those folks is what worries me.

Here in the Salt Lake Valley, the entire west side. . . the Oquirrh mountains, is essentially Rio Tinto private property. Studying the ownership of that corporation, you see a lot of Rockefeller tracks. Rio Tinto property is practically an autonomous country in itself. It's owners also own the Salt Lake Tribune in some general way, through whatever corporation. Mrs. Kearns-McCarthy was a friend of my boss once upon a time, my sister-in-law was the daughter of a long-time Trib executive. If you get to go to the right meetings, you can get acquainted with these folks personally. You should be careful to drive a Mercedes or at least a Benz, and get your clothes from the top stores though.

The reason these folks support the environmental movement is because there is just too much minable resources scattered all over the whole earth. They don't need competition, and they sell this hype to the college kids to make being "green" the way they protect their rackets.

 

[fishonjazz]

You should be careful to drive a Mercedes or at least a Benz

Would a Mercedes Benz work?

 

[one eye]

So, anyway, sounds like we have some devoted acolytes of the SUWA/Sierra Club, and other groups well-endowed by corporate donations, pushing to lock up the West, the whole world for that matter. What drives the donations and the positive media for those folks is what worries me.

Here in the Salt Lake Valley, the entire west side. . . the Oquirrh mountains, is essentially Rio Tinto private property. Studying the ownership of that corporation, you see a lot of Rockefeller tracks. Rio Tinto property is practically an autonomous country in itself. It's owners also own the Salt Lake Tribune in some general way, through whatever corporation. Mrs. Kearns-McCarthy was a friend of my boss once upon a time, my sister-in-law was the daughter of a long-time Trib executive. If you get to go to the right meetings, you can get acquainted with these folks personally. You should be careful to drive a Mercedes or at least a Benz, and get your clothes from the top stores though.

The reason these folks support the environmental movement is because there is just too much minable resources scattered all over the whole earth. They don't need competition, and they sell this hype to the college kids to make being "green" the way they protect their rackets.

Believing in conservation has nothing to do with "locking up the west." That's an easy 2 second sound bit to make conservation seem like environmentalism. Wise development is the path forward. We don't need to lock up the west, but we don't need to asphalt over it all either.

 

[one eye]

Either way babe, all I want is for these public lands to be valued. It's actually quite a luxury to be able to debate what should happen with them, but the debate is over if they are transferred to the state and then sold. I want to voice for their value and importance to keep them in public hands, that my main point of this entire thread. The uses of them are the little things, ensuring we keep them is the biggest issue.

 

[franklin]

All of Utah cares.. But there's some acceptable balance. You appear to have slipped to the dark side of hate. Utah might be better served to have your passion for it have a healthier, less lopsided, understanding and acceptance of a sustainable growth plan.

Yes, I am firmly in the middle. I am a fairly large developer as well as a conservationist and lover of Utah's outdoors.

Sustainable growth means perpetual growth. Is perpetual growth sustainable? I prefer to preserve what little we have left.

The one positive thing I can say about modern, planned development in Utah is they tend to do a fairly good job of preserving some open space even if not habitable, and expand wetland habitat as well. I personally would like to see more 3-5 acre fields in planned developments. Nothing but old growth trees and weeds for kids to play in and pheasants and deer and quail and fox to roam.

Also, I'm a hypocrite because I want my own little slice of real estate just like everyone else. I just wish we could put in, at the local and state level, some form of checks that would force (economically) those like me to build UP instead of OUT.