Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[BENTLEY]

Fine! I was baptized and saved.

Now I can go out rob, lie, steal, commit adultry and drink to my hearts content. I am already saved.

Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid: Yea, We Establish the Law.” Every born-again believer is obligated to obey and fulfill the law, NOT to be saved, but because WE ARE saved. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense. If you truly believe this I recommend a re-reading of the New Testament. Can't hurt.

Do believers have a license to sin? Well, let me put it this way: Our salvation rests upon the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, and not upon our own self-righteousness. However, no believer has God's permission to sin and Hebrews 12:6-8 promises that God will chastise his children who do live in sin. No genuine believer can live in sin and truly be happy, because the Holy Spirit of God will convict the soul. Nevertheless, our salvation is not conditional upon our works, good or bad. Salvation is the unconditional gift of God—the penalty for sin has been paid for by Jesus' redeeming blood. "IT IS FINISHED."

 

[BENTLEY]

There's a huge difference between saying you disagree with someone, and saying that that person/religion is not Christian. I'm fine with you saying you disagree with Catholicism. Or Mormonism, for that matter. But by any reasonable definition both Catholics and Mormons are still Christian.

Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl: "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270: "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225: "What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."

The LDS church today keeps saying "we're Christian" because "Jesus Christ" is in the title of their church. But Joseph Smith never identified with the "Christians," but rather demonized them (as did succeeding Presidents of the church). https://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/christianity.htm

Jesus told his followers that many would come in His NAME, but be ye not deceived. Just because someone claims to be Christian doesn't make it so. God either knows you or He doesn't. But "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity.'"

This whole who is a Christian thing is tricky because of all the different splinters within Christianity, not to mention the actual wolves in sheep's clothing Jesus warned of (Rome declared it was Christian and became "Holy" Roman, but then taught things that weren't in scripture - and wouldn't let anyone have a Bible in their own language so people couldn't check how wrong the Catholic leadership were). Now, I believe that there could be true Christians within Catholicism (they may have been born into it and it was their only avenue of knowing Jesus). I was born into mormonism, and I learned about Jesus there. Some of it was true. Some of it was not. But luckily the truth outweighed the lies and pulled me out of mormonism. Mormonism today is very nice - they're nice people, who try to be good. But the roots, in spite of the propaganda we grew up with, are not good. The roots of Catholicism are Rome and its fruits are the inquisition and the crusades. And now we have people who point to the crusades and say "that's why I'm not a Christian" because they only see the surface. There are people who are evil, or blinded by lies, everywhere. The world is full of sinners and hypocrites, even with in Christ's body of believers. But our salvation is already paid for on the cross and when we admit we are sinners and hypocrites, when we admit our pride and are truly humble and penitent and desperate, as vile as He has declared us to be in His holy Word - it is then we are saved by His grace.

I would imagine if Mormons were around in Paul's day (humor me) then he would've writen a stern letter to the Mormon sect, correcting their false teachings, as he did with the Galatians or Ephesians, etc. But Mormonism teaches with certainty - with pride - that they're the only true Christian sect on the face of the earth. And they refuse to be corrected. This statement made in sacrament meetings everywhere is not a statement of faith, but rather a statement of pride. I sympathize with my mormon brothers and sisters' love of Christ, but I don't excuse their pride. That's on me. I'll try to be more understanding and patient, because He wants me to be. But my salvation is not dependent on my actions.


Go Jazz!

Anyway, you might be unaware that the LDS church also teaches that we are saved by grace. We are also judged by our works. And if your works are evil, Christ's grace won't save you.

If you believe this will you please provide a scripture as support for this claim. Try Galatians. In fact, to all my fellow Jazzfanz who are wondering about this salvation by works vs. grace debate, I recommend Galatians. Although Paul addresses it in other epistles as well.

 

[BENTLEY]

Amen to that. That's why we're wondering why you're giving more credence to Paul's epistles than to James, Matthew, Revelation, etc.

What is the conflict between these scripture. James is not in conflict with Paul. James, as has been addressed in an earlier post, is addressing those Christians who feel that since they're saved they don't have to be good anymore - so James says their faith (without works) is dead. Works are a byproduct of faith. If you don't have good works, well, then you probably weren't truly faithful. But James doesn't say anyone is saved by their works. Our works = "filthy rags."

 

[BENTLEY]

I like the faith side of the coin over the works side. It is a lower standard. If you are saved by faith alone and there is no requirement for any works, just those you feel like doing, that is a lot easier than holding yourself to a certain standard of behavior all the freaking time. Less to repent for. Less reason to feel guilty. Less stuff to worry about.

His yoke is easy, His burden is light.

 

[babe]

You are a pretty fair and balanced guy, imo. The bolder surprises me. Almost every friend I have now is LDS and my business partners (every one of them) are bishops and stake presidents. Each one of them, to the person, can quote BoM chapter and verse (end hyperbole) but readily admit they only passively crack open the Bible. That is every Mormon I know. That's not being judgmental by the way, just an observation.

all I can say to this is that I can and do quote the Book of Mormon, too. Maybe more than I do the Bible, even. There have been some leaders who praise the Book of Mormon as a better way to get closer to the Lord. So, people looking at a complex world or picture will focus on one aspect or another, and maybe get completely different impressions. My comment is not scientific in that I have not compiled thousands of current quotes and classified them as sourced in the Bible or Book of Mormon. I don't care enough to do all that work. I do "look for the source" when I listen to talks, that's about it.

I have this "working theory" of Mormonism that is shifting a bit with more recent inputs. I notice "dropped themes", or things that are falling into disuse currently, and "new themes" or things getting more play. Good Mormons will get hot or bothered, perhaps, when I irreverently or disrespectfully characterize what I think I see, because it's certain that's not the part of the picture they want to see.

I imagine I have more respect for God than changing fashions of thought.

The Book of Mormon's content from the outset consisted of religious or speculative themes that existed in the area of the northern American woods frontier. The idea that the aborigines were lost Israelites had been advanced for over a hundred years. Most of the prominent doctrinal themes involved extensions of Isaiah's prophecies about the ultimate restoration of Israel, New Testament ideas, and what I'd term post-Pauline expositions. There were massive remains of earlier civilizations that had no fixed history at the time, lots of weaponry lost in the woods, deep layers of bones in some spots suggesting genocidal wars. There were findings of copper and silver artifacts that fueled a speculative employment of young boys to dig for treasures like that.

I do know a lot of nice LDS folks who read the Book of Mormon and feel it is the centerpiece of their faith. Maybe it does not get the play in the press/conference context, or in the lesson manuals, because of a purposed intent to focus on stuff that might be more familiar to the new converts or something, I don't know.

 

[green]

Well, this thread is a complete waste now.

It was interesting for awhile.

Anyone find it ironic that grace people bag on Mormons for their focus on works, then spend all day working to show how mormons are wrong? Why do they care so much if you are saved by grace and not works? What is the point? Either you are saved by grace or works or both. If it is grace, and mormons have accepted Jesus in their hearts, then the rest is just icing on the cake.

To think that Christ would turn someone away because they worshipped him through the Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon route and would deny his grace is silly. Especially when Christ is losing the battle to Muhammad, Budda, atheists, etc and the other Asian/African religions. Christ needs all the believers he can get right now.

 

[BENTLEY]

You just described Mormon theology on grace and works.

Here's a talk by Elder Bednar from 2013.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/04/the-atonement-and-the-journey-of-mortality?lang=eng

This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.”2

Grace is the divine assistance or heavenly help each of us desperately needs to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.

In my personal scripture study, I often insert the term “enabling power” whenever I encounter the word grace.

This talk is flowery and subtle. But Bednar's admitting in it that he's re-writing scripture to fit his definition. He's preaching a gospel of salvation by works, assisted by God and in conflict with the gospel first preached by our early Christian fathers. It's nice and pretty but follow Jesus' advice and be ye not deceived.

Galations 1:6-9 "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel. There are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

Colton, you're a lawyer, aren't you? I thought you were. In a courtroom there is a guilty party who has broken the law. His punishment is death (the wages of sin is death). But Jesus Christ steps in as a substitute, a whipping boy, as it were, to take the punishment for us. So He accepts our punishment and dies, so that we don't have to - because He loves us. Where in this is the guilty party "enabled" to do something? Of course, we're grateful that He saved us "while we were sinners" (not after we started being good). But because He saved me I want to be good. But salvation doesn't depend on my actions because the penalty had already been pain. It's finished.

 

[babe]

I like the faith side of the coin over the works side. It is a lower standard. If you are saved by faith alone and there is no requirement for any works, just those you feel like doing, that is a lot easier than holding yourself to a certain standard of behavior all the freaking time. Less to repent for. Less reason to feel guilty. Less stuff to worry about.

This might be your problem. If you view faith and works as alternate sides of the same coin, or if you feel folks who emphasize the redeeming deed of Jesus over their own goodness, or if you have a list of essential things you feel you need to do to be OK with God, these ideas will fuel decisions in different ways.

I say it's just one issue, perhaps with many sides but one issue. People just don't really understand it.

The issue is your gift, not the anybody else's. Jesus did his part, but one question remains. What is your choice? maybe, it's not a one-time event but an ongoing life choice.

Well, I've heard some preachers explain that there may be phonies in the flock who say they're Christ's but who are essentially unchanged by their claim. Others want it to be a one-time event, and leave the rest to Jesus. My criticisms of Mormons lie in the area of substituting organizational compliance and rituals, like the Catholics did throughout the dark ages in Europe, as I would make it out, for the clear-cut emphasis on the first commandment, or the "Greatest Commandment" as Jesus termed it, but it all seems to me to reduce to a way of life where considerations of God's commandments are an on-going priority over various interposed human "requirements".

Mormons can be as good as any Christians in this respect, and often are. Other Christians can fail as often and as badly and any Mormons do, as well.

God has given us our lives, our time here, and perhaps much more. What can we give Him? Love, and service to God and to others, to God's other children. Talking about faith and works as inherently different things confuses that single truth and isn't even worth the argument. . . .

 

[♪alt13]

all I can say to this is that I can and do quote the Book of Mormon, too. Maybe more than I do the Bible, even. There have been some leaders who praise the Book of Mormon as a better way to get closer to the Lord. So, people looking at a complex world or picture will focus on one aspect or another, and maybe get completely different impressions. My comment is not scientific in that I have not compiled thousands of current quotes and classified them as sourced in the Bible or Book of Mormon. I don't care enough to do all that work. I do "look for the source" when I listen to talks, that's about it.

I have this "working theory" of Mormonism that is shifting a bit with more recent inputs. I notice "dropped themes", or things that are falling into disuse currently, and "new themes" or things getting more play. Good Mormons will get hot or bothered, perhaps, when I irreverently or disrespectfully characterize what I think I see, because it's certain that's not the part of the picture they want to see.

I imagine I have more respect for God than changing fashions of thought.

The Book of Mormon's content from the outset consisted of religious or speculative themes that existed in the area of the northern American woods frontier. The idea that the aborigines were lost Israelites had been advanced for over a hundred years. Most of the prominent doctrinal themes involved extensions of Isaiah's prophecies about the ultimate restoration of Israel, New Testament ideas, and what I'd term post-Pauline expositions. There were massive remains of earlier civilizations that had no fixed history at the time, lots of weaponry lost in the woods, deep layers of bones in some spots suggesting genocidal wars. There were findings of copper and silver artifacts that fueled a speculative employment of young boys to dig for treasures like that.

I do know a lot of nice LDS folks who read the Book of Mormon and feel it is the centerpiece of their faith. Maybe it does not get the play in the press/conference context, or in the lesson manuals, because of a purposed intent to focus on stuff that might be more familiar to the new converts or something, I don't know.

Couldn't you make a similar case about the Bible? The flood, virgin birth, resurrection, etc. Didn't all these themes exist within religions that predated both Christianity and Judaism?

 

[RandyForRubio]

Well, this thread is a complete waste now.

It was interesting for awhile.

Anyone find it ironic that grace people bag on Mormons for their focus on works, then spend all day working to show how mormons are wrong? Why do they care so much if you are saved by grace and not works? What is the point? Either you are saved by grace or works or both. If it is grace, and mormons have accepted Jesus in their hearts, then the rest is just icing on the cake.

To think that Christ would turn someone away because they worshipped him through the Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon route and would deny his grace is silly. Especially when Christ is losing the battle to Muhammad, Budda, atheists, etc and the other Asian/African religions. Christ needs all the believers he can get right now.

With all due respect, the fundamental problem you're stating here is thinking that Christ needs us. He does not. He wants us, but He does not need us. We already know how this story ends, God wins...with or without us.

As for most of what you said, there's a very good reason that the Bible says that the gate is narrow that leads to life and those who find it are few. Read about this stuff, pray about it, it can't hurt at all.

 

[babe]

Well, this thread is a complete waste now.

It was interesting for awhile.

Anyone find it ironic that grace people bag on Mormons for their focus on works, then spend all day working to show how mormons are wrong? Why do they care so much if you are saved by grace and not works? What is the point? Either you are saved by grace or works or both. If it is grace, and mormons have accepted Jesus in their hearts, then the rest is just icing on the cake.

To think that Christ would turn someone away because they worshipped him through the Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon route and would deny his grace is silly. Especially when Christ is losing the battle to Muhammad, Budda, atheists, etc and the other Asian/African religions. Christ needs all the believers he can get right now.

An active conscience requires discriminating views between nearly identical concepts as well as the broadly differing. It is generally true that people focus more on the differences between nearly congruent claims than they do the obviously incoherent.

Here I am, all fussy about decadal differences in Mormonism's drift, annoying the happy Mormons, because I think it's important to have a clear alternative to the World Council of Churches neo-orthodoxy.

start by finding one thing you do believe, and build from that, and you will understand why specifics matter.

 

[Dr. Jones]

all I can say to this is that I can and do quote the Book of Mormon, too. Maybe more than I do the Bible, even. There have been some leaders who praise the Book of Mormon as a better way to get closer to the Lord. So, people looking at a complex world or picture will focus on one aspect or another, and maybe get completely different impressions. My comment is not scientific in that I have not compiled thousands of current quotes and classified them as sourced in the Bible or Book of Mormon. I don't care enough to do all that work. I do "look for the source" when I listen to talks, that's about it.

I have this "working theory" of Mormonism that is shifting a bit with more recent inputs. I notice "dropped themes", or things that are falling into disuse currently, and "new themes" or things getting more play. Good Mormons will get hot or bothered, perhaps, when I irreverently or disrespectfully characterize what I think I see, because it's certain that's not the part of the picture they want to see.

I imagine I have more respect for God than changing fashions of thought.

The Book of Mormon's content from the outset consisted of religious or speculative themes that existed in the area of the northern American woods frontier. The idea that the aborigines were lost Israelites had been advanced for over a hundred years. Most of the prominent doctrinal themes involved extensions of Isaiah's prophecies about the ultimate restoration of Israel, New Testament ideas, and what I'd term post-Pauline expositions. There were massive remains of earlier civilizations that had no fixed history at the time, lots of weaponry lost in the woods, deep layers of bones in some spots suggesting genocidal wars. There were findings of copper and silver artifacts that fueled a speculative employment of young boys to dig for treasures like that.

I do know a lot of nice LDS folks who read the Book of Mormon and feel it is the centerpiece of their faith. Maybe it does not get the play in the press/conference context, or in the lesson manuals, because of a purposed intent to focus on stuff that might be more familiar to the new converts or something, I don't know.

I really like how you communicate regarding religion. You suck at everything else though. JK,bro.


















about the first sentence.


























haha


































but srs