Radical islamists killing atheists now..

[Joe Bagadonuts]

please provide a list of these violence-free regions of economic and social desolation. I'll patiently wait.

While there is violence in any culture, other religions aren't being used as an excuse/tool for lashing out at the world. In India the combination of Hinduism and poverty are not resulting in terrorism. In South America Christianity is not being used as a rallying cry to attack the world. In southern Africa the poor are not using their religion to attempt to destroy western culture.

Your underlying point is a good one, though, and I cannot disagree that economics is probably the most important cause of the problems we are discussing. Unfortunately the Islamic faith has been hijacked to support violence which is destroying the ability to solve those economic problems. The people who have done the hijacking are not the impoverished who are serving as this movements soldiers. They are the elite who are sitting in their palaces living comfortable lives while financing this madness. It's a terrible situation, and obviously no one can yet figure out how to solve it.

At present, if you cannot see that the Islamic religion is being used to fuel the problems then you are simply denying the obvious. That was my point from the earlier post.

 

[Siro]

While there is violence in any culture, other religions aren't being used as an excuse/tool for lashing out at the world. In India the combination of Hinduism and poverty are not resulting in terrorism. In South America Christianity is not being used as a rallying cry to attack the world. In southern Africa the poor are not using their religion to attempt to destroy western culture.

Your underlying point is a good one, though, and I cannot disagree that economics is probably the most important cause of the problems we are discussing. Unfortunately the Islamic faith has been hijacked to support violence which is destroying the ability to solve those economic problems. The people who have done the hijacking are not the impoverished who are serving as this movements soldiers. They are the elite who are sitting in their palaces living comfortable lives while financing this madness. It's a terrible situation, and obviously no one can yet figure out how to solve it.

At present, if you cannot see that the Islamic religion is being used to fuel the problems then you are simply denying the obvious. That was my point from the earlier post.

The world's primary importer of terror is Saudi Arabia. A country swimming in oil, with an economically comfortable populous. There is also the fact that poor non-Muslim countries often suffer from Islamist terrorism from their Muslim minorities.

Now I agree that Islam doesn't have to be violent. After all, people like Dalamon exist. But none of the justifications used are quite convincing. And I was born and raised in the Muslim world. I've heard ALL OF THEM.

 

[Gameface]

continue with your point-- do you think that the religion only appeals to those in these conditions?

I think the fact that secularism has been rejected allowed the religion to hold the region back.

If Christians didn't embrace secularism for the most part Christianity would have held the western world back.

It isn't necessarily that the religion itself is any worse than any other religion, it's that for whatever reason, adherents to that faith have rejected secularism more than adherents of other faiths.

Religion (believing in the supernatural as a philosophical foundation for your life) is the problem. The less that religion interferes with our government and our professional lives the better. Religion is way too involved in government and every aspect of industry in the Muslim world.

 

[Siro]

I think the fact that secularism has been rejected allowed the religion to hold the region back.

If Christians didn't embrace secularism for the most part Christianity would have held the western world back.

It isn't necessarily that the religion itself is any worse than any other religion, it's that for whatever reason, adherents to that faith have rejected secularism more than adherents of other faiths.

Religion (believing in the supernatural as a philosophical foundation for your life) is the problem. The less that religion interferes with our government and our professional lives the better. Religion is way too involved in government and every aspect of industry in the Muslim world.

I don't really think that's true. Europe became a world power while being Christian, and partly BECAUSE of its Christianity (learned priesthood, continent-wide cooperation based on shared religion, the desire to 'unravel the mechanisms of creation', and countless other factors). Secularism emerged organically after the mechanistic worldview became strong enough to support itself.

I agree with your larger thesis however. Islam must undergo a secular revolution if it is to be compatible with modern norms and values. The Islamic worldview that the religion is a comprehensive way of life that cannot be separated from any part of it is a determinant to its adherents. I also agree that supernaturalism is an inferior way of thinking that should be discouraged.

 

[Gameface]

I don't really think that's true. Europe became a world power while being Christian, and partly BECAUSE of its Christianity (learned priesthood, continent-wide cooperation based on shared religion, the desire to 'unravel the mechanisms of creation', and countless other factors). Secularism emerged organically after the mechanistic worldview became strong enough to support itself.

I agree with your larger thesis however. Islam must undergo a secular revolution if it is to be compatible with modern norms and values. The Islamic worldview that the religion is a comprehensive way of life that cannot be separated from any part of it is a determinant to its adherents. I also agree that supernaturalism is an inferior way of thinking that should be discouraged.

I don't really think you're disagreeing with me. The industrial revolution and the rise of secularism kind of go hand in hand. Sure, in a world where everyone lives under some sort of theocratic rule other factors will make the difference as to who is a world power or not, but with the advances of technology playing a greater and greater role I think it's important to abandon supernatural beliefs about how the world works and how people ought to conduct themselves.

 

[GVC]

I agree with your larger thesis however. Islam must undergo a secular revolution if it is to be compatible with modern norms and values. The Islamic worldview that the religion is a comprehensive way of life that cannot be separated from any part of it is a determinant to its adherents. I also agree that supernaturalism is an inferior way of thinking that should be discouraged.

Which raises what should be the key question(s) in this discussion: Is the dogma/culture of Islam less amenable to secularization than other large world religions? Why or why not?

Neither side has attempted to answer that question in this thread.

 

[Siro]

I don't really think you're disagreeing with me. The industrial revolution and the rise of secularism kind of go hand in hand. Sure, in a world where everyone lives under some sort of theocratic rule other factors will make the difference as to who is a world power or not, but with the advances of technology playing a greater and greater role I think it's important to abandon supernatural beliefs about how the world works and how people ought to conduct themselves.

Oh, no, I agree with you. The only part I disagreed with is that Islam is not worse than Christianity. History, ending in today's world, shows that it is. Keep in mind that I'm talking to a person who understands that both ideologies are 100% man-made. Given that fact, the way Christianity emerged and evolved served its adherents far better than Islam.

I was digressing, really. I agree with your point that's actually relevant to the topic. lol

 

[Siro]

Which raises what should be the key question(s) in this discussion: Is the dogma/culture of Islam less amenable to secularization than other large world religions? Why or why not?

Neither side in this thread has attempted to answer that question.

Precisely. Islam is more resistant to adaptation. Look at "secular" Muslim countries like Syria. The secularism is skin deep, and only works by violently suppressing Islamist elements until breaking point. Everyone in the Middle East knew how fragile Syria's situation is long before the civil war. The only successful example of secularization in the Muslim world is Turkey. And that's because of a history of exposure to secular Europe and its ideas and successes. And even there, the situation is far from being as securely secular as other European countries.

The why of it is complicated. I think it is doctrinal and historical. One big problem is the existence of Hadith, and how entrenched it is in Muslim culture. Throughout history, any ruler who wanted to make up a "doctrinal" point would come up with a supposed ruling by Prophet Mohammad to support his claim. So we ended up with 10s of thousands of doctrines that can be used to justify whatever the hell one wants. And given the nature of those who created Hadiths, one cannot be surprised that many of them can be extremely backward and harmful. For example, the entirety of Sharia laws comes from Hadith.

And it isn't like you can safely challenge those doctrines. A couple of years ago, I mentioned the unreliability of Hadith to a relative in a discussion about religion, and we almost came to blows. It is just too deeply entrenched in the the culture.

This is of course one of countless issues that arose in the development of Islam throughout its history to this day. It is a difficult problem to tackle. Unless we have sweeping generational reforms, I don't see it going away any time soon. And I don't see how those can be accomplished in an atmosphere where the tiniest signs of dissent are seen as blasphemy worthy of the death penalty.

 

[MVP]

You're missing my point. Take an extra second to read what I'm saying:



Umm yes. Historically,　Christianity far outnumbers Islam. No contest. Not even close.

I think you are really wrong on this one. Lets dig up some data by deaths and compare. How did Islam spread from Saudi Arabia through Africa and Asia? By peaceful education and convincing other nonbelievers? You must be kidding yourself if you believe it.

 

[Miggs]

Why can't the whole world just be Buddhists? Dudes seem chill as hell.

 

[moevillini]

Why can't the whole world just be Buddhists? Dudes seem chill as hell.

well, maybe, except when they're setting themselves on fire

they seem to have a bit of a fascination with that as a means of protest, though I'm not sure how effective it is. But is definitely is NOT chill!

 

[Jamezz]

There are gonna be big issues with muslims in Europe along the road.