Raja can't let it go

[BluesRocker]

The trade exception from the Boozer sign-and-trade turned into Big Al. That's not exactly worthless. And the Jazz still have a trade exception from the Okur trade. Patience is a virtue. Teams are always a work in progress. And I love how you seem to think that it's some easy thing to make great trades. The Jazz are pretty tight-lipped about things. It's kind of hard to pass judgement on KOC when you don't necessarily know what proposals are out there.

Just have to jump in here and mention that a lot of KOC's lack of trades had to do with the coach and the owner saying no. KOC wanted to trade AK, KOC wanted to trade Boozer. LHM said no to the first and Sloan said no to the later. KOC has made a lot of moves in the last year that might show what he can do if given the power to do so. He never really had that power until this last year IMO.

I know that LHM Vetoed an AK for Marion trade. LHM said so. As for the Boozer trades It's hear say. But I've heard it from a few people, including people outside the Jazz

Good post.

I don't think there's any question whatsoever that KOC has been handcuffed quite a bit in his ability to make moves with this team, both by ownership and with Jerry. I have been pretty vocal this year about not agreeing with the strategy our FO had this season, but it cracks me up when people like BR nitpick every little thing that happens or doesn't happen, as if they have the slightest clue as to what's going on behind the scenes. We don't, and judging KOC by the things we know, he has been pretty damn good as a GM, and he's not even close to playing on a level field with other GMs. He's at a disadvantage financially compared to a lot of teams, and in a big way with FAs. I definately would have liked for things to have been handled differently this season in respect to how this team is being built, but it would have come with the risk of having ticket sales drop off temporarily, and I don't think ownership is ok with that.

I was hoping that KOC would have complete freedom with Jerry gone, but judging by how things were handled this season, I don't believe that's the case. He certainly has more freedom in building the team, but not like I hoped. Obviously, KOC has made plenty of mistakes, just like every other GM in the league, but it gets a little silly when people start complaining about every single trade made around the league, as if KOC should have been able to swoop in every time with a better deal. He deserves to take some criticism for some of the things he's done, but the nitpicking really gets ridiculous.

I'm with you, the dumbass complains about KOC like he knows what the **** is going on. Blues for GM.

Hey kenny. Looks like it wasnt me that brought it up. I only started talking about the behind closed doors speculation after it was already brought up.

Thanks for talking out your *** though.

 

[northeast]

Stop bringing facts into this !

It's much more effective to make stuff up and let others worry about fact checking.

 

[Hartsock]

Umm...

How long do you think KOC has been the general manager?

Also you dont think John, Karl, and Deron had something to do with the Jazz's long success

Touche, obviously he was not responsible for all 25 years. I get that, my bad. Butttttt the Jazz have no business being a consistently good team, a consistent playoff team. Basically what I'm saying, is there is a reason that KOC is one of the most respected GM's in the game and you're not. I trust his decisions and I think he makes good moves, some haven't worked out, but what the **** do you really want? Seriously? What is it you want him to do?

 

[Hartsock]

Hey kenny. Looks like it wasnt me that brought it up. I only started talking about the behind closed doors speculation after it was already brought up.

Thanks for talking out your *** though.

You should put the times you brought it up into that timeline, in chronological order, then that will mean something.

 

[Hartsock]

Also you just brought up all times people proved your opinon on KOC is retarded. Good job though.

 

[northeast]

kenny, you should do it...
I don't think we can trust BR to be unbiased,]
you do it, and don't forget to document everything fully, or we cut you nuts off.
every single post ever made most be thoroughly vetted.
and every one else should double check your work too, or it is meaningless.

 

[Hartsock]

kenny, you should do it...
I don't think we can trust BR to be unbiased,]
you do it, and don't forget to document everything fully, or we cut you nuts off.
every single post ever made most be thoroughly vetted.
and every one else should double check your work too, or it is meaningless.

Jesus, northeast and Blues ganging up on me. God forbid.

 

[Stoked]

Jesus, northeast and Blues ganging up on me. God forbid.

Run for the hills man. Run and don't look back!

 

[BluesRocker]

Touche, obviously he was not responsible for all 25 years. I get that, my bad. Butttttt the Jazz have no business being a consistently good team, a consistent playoff team. Basically what I'm saying, is there is a reason that KOC is one of the most respected GM's in the game and you're not. I trust his decisions and I think he makes good moves, some haven't worked out, but what the **** do you really want? Seriously? What is it you want him to do?

I want him to get these Vets out of the way, who arent part of our long term future. We are on the verge of losing players for nothing. You telling me he cant trade Al for anything we could use. Like a pick or two? Or Paul or Devin? Al we paid 3 firsts for and we will probably watch him walk for nothing. So we rent a lousy player for a couple years and it costs us 3 picks? That's if we dont plan on using Kanter. Or how about letting Boozer expire and never getting anything for him. The tpe dont count for ****. We had to pay for Al. We didnt trade Al for Boozer.

I just dont get it because, everyone and there dog can see we should be making a move right now for all sorts of reasons. But if you listen to Kevin and observe his actions you will see he has no plans to make a move. He is trying to sell us on a flawed situation. Even if the right move isnt out there for Al or Paul, then why not sell them off for future first's? We can wait to cash them in, I dont care. It makes since because we have two 3rd overall picks that we need to see what they got. Im sure there is somebody out there that would take Paul or Al and pay for it later.

Kevin's whole deal is we have to make the playoffs, but really it isnt the right time. Our future isnt ready for that anyways.

The whole thing he has going on right now is one stupid big mess. He better do something this offseason.

 

[Stoked]

Blues you and North need to stop your bullying ways. Not cool man, not cool.

 

[BluesRocker]

You should put the times you brought it up into that timeline, in chronological order, then that will mean something.

Lol

I tried. It was too many times it was used against me before I ever responded. I clicked mine when it finally came up, but it was too many quotes or something. It wouldnt include it.

 

[Hartsock]

I want him to get these Vets out of the way, who arent part of our long term future. We are on the verge of losing players for nothing. You telling me he cant trade Al for anything we could use. Like a pick or two? Or Paul or Devin? Al we paid 3 firsts for and we will probably watch him walk for nothing. So we rent a lousy player for a couple years and it costs us 3 picks? That's if we dont plan on using Kanter. Or how about letting Boozer expire and never getting anything for him. The tpe dont count for ****. We had to pay for Al. We didnt trade Al for Boozer.

I just dont get it because, everyone and there dog can see we should be making a move right now for all sorts of reasons. But if you listen to Kevin and observe his actions you will see he has no plans to make a move. He is trying to sell us on a flawed situation. Even if the right move isnt out there for Al or Paul, then why not sell them off for future first's? We can wait to cash them in, I dont care. It makes since because we have two 3rd overall picks that we need to see what they got. Im sure there is somebody out there that would take Paul or Al and pay for it later.

Kevin's whole deal is we have to make the playoffs, but really it isnt the right time. Our future isnt ready for that anyways.

The whole thing he has going on right now is one stupid big mess. He better do something this offseason.

I don't think its quite one big stupid mess, but I agree I think we can get something for Al or Paul. You are acting like it is to late to trade either of them, like we missed the only chance we had at getting something for them which is just not true. After the draft, if nothing has happened, then you can continue your bitching. But there is still plenty of time man, just relax.

 

[northeast]

bitchin post man.

 

[BluesRocker]

I don't think its quite one big stupid mess, but I agree I think we can get something for Al or Paul. You are acting like it is to late to trade either of them, like we missed the only chance we had at getting something for them which is just not true. After the draft, if nothing has happened, then you can continue your bitching. But there is still plenty of time man, just relax.

Im just still upset about how it all played out this season. I knew before the season started right where we would end up. Right in the middle of the pack, if we went with what we had. We seem lost in what we are trying to accomplish. Why did we get 2 bigs, 3rd overall each, with no real plans of using them that much? What's the point of giving all the burn to players(Al, and Paul) if we don't think they will be our future starters. They aren't winning you a championship, and they aren't your future. What's the point? And it's not Ty's fault. He had to play them. He has to win ball games right now. Plus how would it look to everyone in the league? Ty has to worry about those things and his career. These things are on Kevin. I also think that we probably could have gotten more out of Al and Paul if we traded them with 2 years lefts instead of like now with one. And it's not as difficult as everyone makes it out to be. The salries are the hardest part to figure out right? And it's the years that scares GM's the most right? Well you open a whole bunch up if you are willing to take on someone's bad contract. But tha't how you extract picks from them. I guarantee the options are more out there than you think. I have seen all the salaries. I know teams would do it. It just depends on whether or not you be willing to bring in a salary that doesn't help you. Well that's where I think I differ from Kevin O Connor. He want's to make sure we are as good as we can be each year. I disagree. I believe there is a time to shoot for the moon, so to speak. In other words, when to go for it. Now wasn't the time. I like what we got in our young four, and I think they have a chance to be great. But they just arent ready. I'll take picks over the supposed progression a young person recieves playing behind other guys they will soon be better than. Give me talent over playoff experience everyday of the week. So I would take a contract like Rashard Lewis's off a teams hands for a pick. Like what Cleveland did. You have to fill the salary holes anyways. Then your young guys get burn. They get wooped, learn their lessons, and come back better. If not, they probably werent winning a championship anyways. Right? You ever heard of it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jim's and Joes. Talent wins. Period. It isn't about the system or coach, experience playing with other good players, or playoff experience. I always have a hard time buying into the greatness of coaches and GM's. To me it's, who has the best player combinations out there. It's pretty simple


I just don't know what he is doing or what his philosophy is.

 

[Stoked]

Im just still upset about how it all played out this season. I knew before the season started right where we would end up. Right in the middle of the pack, if we went with what we had. We seem lost in what we are trying to accomplish. Why did we get 2 bigs, 3rd overall each, with no real plans of using them that much? What's the point of giving all the burn to players(Al, and Paul) if we don't think they will be our future starters. They aren't winning you a championship, and they aren't your future. What's the point? And it's not Ty's fault. He had to play them. He has to win ball games right now. Plus how would it look to everyone in the league? Ty has to worry about those things and his career. These things are on Kevin. I also think that we probably could have gotten more out of Al and Paul if we traded them with 2 years lefts instead of like now with one. And it's not as difficult as everyone makes it out to be. The salries are the hardest part to figure out right? And it's the years that scares GM's the most right? Well you open a whole bunch up if you are willing to take on someone's bad contract. But tha't how you extract picks from them. I guarantee the options are more out there than you think. I have seen all the salaries. I know teams would do it. It just depends on whether or not you be willing to bring in a salary that doesn't help you. Well that's where I think I differ from Kevin O Connor. He want's to make sure we are as good as we can be each year. I disagree. I believe there is a time to shoot for the moon, so to speak. In other words, when to go for it. Now wasn't the time. I like what we got in our young four, and I think they have a chance to be great. But they just arent ready. I'll take picks over the supposed progression a young person recieves playing behind other guys they will soon be better than. Give me talent over playoff experience everyday of the week. So I would take a contract like Rashard Lewis's off a teams hands for a pick. Like what Cleveland did. You have to fill the salary holes anyways. Then your young guys get burn. They get wooped, learn their lessons, and come back better. If not, they probably werent winning a championship anyways. Right? You ever heard of it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jim's and Joes. Talent wins. Period. It isn't about the system or coach, experience playing with other good players, or playoff experience. I always have a hard time buying into the greatness of coaches and GM's. To me it's, who has the best player combinations out there. It's pretty simple


I just don't know what he is doing or what his philosophy is.

Which is just the way KOC wants it in my opinion. He plays his cards close to the chest. I think that is a good thing. The downside of that is that it can be frustrating and confusing from a fans point of view.

 

[Hartsock]

We didn't give Al and Paul all of the time, they got a lot of it, Favors should have gotten more I will agree with that. Kanter on the other hand was not even close to ready to being a regular contributor. He missed what like 18 months of basketball and is only 19? He didn't deserve a whole lot more time than he got. We had 4 bigs, 3 were ready to play, and 1 wasn't, that doesn't seem like a huge log jam to me. 3 bigs for positions with Kanter getting 10 min a game seems like an ok deal really. We can't have a team of all rookies and 2nd year guys, we need some veterans who are currently better than the rookies to play until the rooks develop. We can't just throw all the young guys on the court and see what happens or everyone would be bitching about how we were one of the worst teams in the west. The rookies would develop slower, get bad habits, and would probably not reach their potential. Sure OKC did it but they have been so lucky, or good, with their picks that there really isn't much they could have done to screw it up. Favors is ready now, Kanter still isn't, I'm sure he will be closer and will contribute more next year but he just isn't ready to be a starter. So I think they plan on developing their players, I think that's the plan. It seems like a good one to me.

 

[BluesRocker]

Which is just the way KOC wants it in my opinion. He plays his cards close to the chest. I think that is a good thing. The downside of that is that it can be frustrating and confusing from a fans point of view.

Im going to give him one more chance to make it right this offseason. If he doesn't do anything, I will hit this board with fire Kevin O Conner fury like no one has ever seen.

 

[BluesRocker]

We didn't give Al and Paul all of the time, they got a lot of it, Favors should have gotten more I will agree with that. Kanter on the other hand was not even close to ready to being a regular contributor. He missed what like 18 months of basketball and is only 19? He didn't deserve a whole lot more time than he got. We had 4 bigs, 3 were ready to play, and 1 wasn't, that doesn't seem like a huge log jam to me. 3 bigs for positions with Kanter getting 10 min a game seems like an ok deal really. We can't have a team of all rookies and 2nd year guys, we need some veterans who are currently better than the rookies to play until the rooks develop. We can't just throw all the young guys on the court and see what happens or everyone would be bitching about how we were one of the worst teams in the west. The rookies would develop slower, get bad habits, and would probably not reach their potential. Sure OKC did it but they have been so lucky, or good, with their picks that there really isn't much they could have done to screw it up. Favors is ready now, Kanter still isn't, I'm sure he will be closer and will contribute more next year but he just isn't ready to be a starter. So I think they plan on developing their players, I think that's the plan. It seems like a good one to me.

I agree only with the statements in bold. Kanter wasn't ready to play, But doesn't mean he couldn't. I bet he would have easily notched 10+ boards a game. I have no doubt about that. I would have still rather watch him and Jeremy Evans go out and try to get better everyday, rather than ride the pine.

I think we can play a bunch of young guys. Guys like Favors and Hayward are good but certainly not championship ready either. But I don't see why we can't play them a lot anyways.. How it could be worse to play with other young guys than only see a small amount of minutes playing with older guys.

And why is everyone so afraid of losing some games for a season or two? If you have future stars a brewing then you will most likely make it out. I don't believe you get stuck in dwelling in the lottery forever. It's not one size fits all situations. Some teams get stuck down there because of repeated bad decisions. Our situations was totally different and actually resemebled the OKC model more than anything, even as hard as it is to duplicate. No we might not be as good. But I bet anything our will certainly be good enough to pull them selves out of the lottery and into the playoffs. Meanwhile we add a couple more pieces to help. I dont see the problem

 

[Stoked]

Im going to give him one more chance to make it right this offseason. If he doesn't do anything, I will hit this board with fire Kevin O Conner fury like no one has ever seen.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BluesRocker again.

 

[billyshelby]

Anything Raja says that burns the burned bridge further beyond repair is good.