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Reasons you left the LDS church.

The hate and frustration I see in your retorts just supports my generalization of the ills of authoritarianism in governance and in education molded to government purpose.

Of course it does. If you were a critical thinker, it would cause you to wonder why I make the claims I do, what data you might be missing, and what basis I have to support my statements. After all, critical thinkers don't just assume people are wrong they follow the evidence. However, based on past experience, anything I write will confirm to you what you already believe. If I agree, your beliefs will be confirmed. If I disagree, your beliefs will be confirmed. When all observations serve to confirm your beliefs, that is a sign you are not engaging in critical thinking.

Critical thinking is not to be confused with revolutionary thinking, nor anti-authoritarian thinking. It is not about rejecting a party line. It requires deciding what is or is n ot true regardless of who says or how accepted the truth is, based on objective standards of evidence.

Your teaching style is heavily evident in what you write in here.

Can you justify that statement in any way? Or, does this post already confirm that statement for you, so you don't need to justify it?

folks with less abstract takes on it just call it bull.

My takes on these issues seem to be far more concrete than yours.
 
why do you make the claims you do? Seriously?

You live and breathe the culture of an educational establishment, and you are fine with it. You think the way you want to think. Am I assuming something not in evidence? You are satisfied with your set of firm convictions, and if someone else tries to rattle those things, you reply "My takes on these issues seems to be far more concrete than yours."

The evidence of my statement consists in your replies within the forums I've seen, and it's a generalization not entirely in accord with every example, rather the remark is meant as a reminder of things you probably have sometimes realized, but forget when you get emotional about your objectivity.

Critical thinking is theoretically useful on more levels than one. Evaluating the cost/benefit relation of say a city building code requires a lot of detailed analysis of several known alternatives, which I'm not going to do in a one hundred word comment here. The belief of authoritarian government officials that nobody should be permitted to do anything without their authorization is something anyone might imagine could be a problem, who has dealt with contradictory code enforcement officers who will just sit on a construction project until you slip them some cash. The fact that cities will not or can not police their officials is in my view worthy of a summary dismissal of their whole claim to authority.

Like everything else that goes on inside human skulls in the way of neuronic feel-good notions, our definitions of "critical thinking" are plastic to our purposes.
 
why do you make the claims you do? Seriously?

You live and breathe the culture of an educational establishment, and you are fine with it. You think the way you want to think. Am I assuming something not in evidence? You are satisfied with your set of firm convictions, and if someone else tries to rattle those things, you reply "My takes on these issues seems to be far more concrete than yours."

The evidence of my statement consists in your replies within the forums I've seen, and it's a generalization not entirely in accord with every example, rather the remark is meant as a reminder of things you probably have sometimes realized, but forget when you get emotional about your objectivity.

Critical thinking is theoretically useful on more levels than one. Evaluating the cost/benefit relation of say a city building code requires a lot of detailed analysis of several known alternatives, which I'm not going to do in a one hundred word comment here. The belief of authoritarian government officials that nobody should be permitted to do anything without their authorization is something anyone might imagine could be a problem, who has dealt with contradictory code enforcement officers who will just sit on a construction project until you slip them some cash. The fact that cities will not or can not police their officials is in my view worthy of a summary dismissal of their whole claim to authority.

Like everything else that goes on inside human skulls in the way of neuronic feel-good notions, our definitions of "critical thinking" are plastic to our purposes.

I make most of the claims I do based on study, and some on an internal sense of right and wrong. For example, I've actually studied upon learning methods and their effectiveness.

Anyone who teaches is in the culture of education, just like anyone who goes to the Roman Catholic church is in the culture of Catholicism. Like any other culture, people participate in different ways, to different degrees. I'm reading my fourth book on educational techniques in the last four years. Care to guess how many of them positively mention rote learning and the factory model you rail against?

You apparently would see the content of my replies as evidence of your positions, regardless of their content. That's just the kind of thinker you seem to be. No matter what the evidence is, it supports you.

Corruption is bad. A lack of any standard is often worse, in no small part because the corruption persists, but we rename it "fraud".

I have no doubt you find concepts plastic to your purposes. Some people have standards for their concepts.
 
I make most of the claims I do based on study, and some on an internal sense of right and wrong. For example, I've actually studied upon learning methods and their effectiveness.

Anyone who teaches is in the culture of education, just like anyone who goes to the Roman Catholic church is in the culture of Catholicism. Like any other culture, people participate in different ways, to different degrees. I'm reading my fourth book on educational techniques in the last four years. Care to guess how many of them positively mention rote learning and the factory model you rail against?

You apparently would see the content of my replies as evidence of your positions, regardless of their content. That's just the kind of thinker you seem to be. No matter what the evidence is, it supports you.

Corruption is bad. A lack of any standard is often worse, in no small part because the corruption persists, but we rename it "fraud".

I have no doubt you find concepts plastic to your purposes. Some people have standards for their concepts.

Of course there is even internal backlash against the prevalent norms in education. It wouldn't make a book worth reading if there were no improvements that could be held forth. Which is exactly my basic thesis.

In education, there are "good" and "bad" teachers. Again, it is plastic in the hands of whoever is making the judgment. You have to be very very bad before nearly everyone will make that judgment, or very very good in order to stand out in the students mind and cause them to think it remarkable.

The saving grace in even government-run schools in tyrannical, propagandistic countries, is that people are still people, and some humanity persists. . . . despite every intention on the part of authority to wipe it out. A good example would be China over the past sixty years. Wanna know how many people look back to the little red book of Chairman Mao for instruction? Nobody. Absolutely nobody. Not even an absolute top-down government can really stand it, for very long.

No matter what you teach, or how you teach it, you are establishing a reference point in the memory and experience of the people involved, which teacher and students alike will likely try to improve upon somehow.

Yah, I know people who have probably read those same books you read, and pride themselves on applying the masterful techniques. . . . . with sometimes rather poor skills of evaluating how they are doing, really. It is just amazing, astounding to see the plasticity in other people's minds, and the apparent gaps between self-appraisals and the opinions of others. I even know a few passionate advocates of human liberty who for whatever reason just look to me like absolute tyrants.

Some can do OK as long as the students are smiling and in general acting appreciative of the wonderful stuff being taught, you could almost think there is a real human bond, a lasting guru/master//accolyte/servant relation and that the students when they are in their fifties will be practically idolizing the teacher still. But as wonderful as it all seems, sometimes even such a beloved teacher cracks when someone responds in some impudent way, and all that niceness is just out the window. "You're an Idiot" the teacher rants.

Wonderful.

IMO, a more sensible teacher will just a priori accept that the people in his/her classroom are on an extended tour. They have been themselves for a long time, and will go on being themselves long after. The only things they will choose to keep from your offerings are the ones they choose to. Whether that comes to a large slice of the pie, or merely a crumb, you offered them what you have, and they made their choice. Shouldn't particularly bother you if other people don't think what you do.

OK, same should hold true for me and my little rants in here.
 
More anti-religious than anti-LDS. But it holds a special place in my heart and a much larger relevance in my day-to-day.

People are free to believe what they will, I have no intrinsic issue with that. When those beliefs seek to take rights away from others then I have a real problem. That happens to be most religions a fair percentage of the time.

Actually that happens to be most ORGANIZED religions. People that just believe what they want to believe, tend to not care what anyone else does with there lives.
These things go hand in hand with the government trying to protect yourself from yourself. AKA the drug war.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk
 
Let's see...One Brow and babe going back and forth. Yep, this thread dropped a deuce.
 
It seems so familiar though...








Weird.

Yah, it is, isn't it.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TroutBum again.

According to
The Maverick Philosopheer
, the subject of one of OB's longer threads over at his blog,

What would Hitch lose by believing? Of course, he can't bring himself to believe, it is not a Jamesian live option, but suppose he could. Would he lose 'the truth'? But nobody knows what the truth is about death and the hereafter. People only think they do. Well, suppose 'the truth' is that we are nothing but complex physical systems slated for annihilation. Why would knowing this 'truth' be a value? Even if one is facing reality by believing that death is the utter end of the self, what is the good of facing reality in a situation in which one is but a material system?

If materialism is true, then I think Nietzsche is right: truth is not a value; life-enhancing illusions are to be preferred. If truth is out of all relation to human flourishing, why should we value it?

One of the most compelling "life-enhancing illusions" is that of "understanding the universe" somehow, others are that of actually believing you are reasonable, educated, productive, spiritual, rational, wise. . . . in short, "right".

While I can hardly escape these sorts of compelling illusions myself, I think there is more to it than anything I can know or say. I am not simply a materialist because I think the material, observable world is only part of it all. Certainly, even in the "material world" the extent of the Universe begs sentient life to resist the illusion that we know it all.

I think I was once in some sort of comparable state as I think OB is now. I used to take myself seriously. Sometimes I fall to the temptation to just make fun of those I think are like I used to be, and make fun of them. . . . . or worse yet, try to reason with them. . . . . which strikes me as something of joke, too. . . .but I think I will just accept your rebuke here, and just laugh at myself for what I wrote above.
 
I just want to remind this thread that Sinomar called Trout a cute retarded neighbor's dog or something close before sobering up and editing it out to look cool in his own mind, and stuff.

Going the sober route was wrong Sinomar. Pure WRONG :mad:
 
While I am a Muslim, sadly I must say that I am not 100% religious and have a little bit of agnostic in me just like almost everyone else in the world does.

If people were 100% religious and had no doubts no one would ever sin, no one would ever waste time with things like entertainment and dedicate all their life to their religion and helping others, would donate their kidney, and act as good as all these prophets and saints and such did or claimed to have done. Also they wouldn't have any fear of death, or at least less fear of death.

Everyone just hopes that there is something else after this life.

It's just too gloomy thinking otherwise.

The only guarantee in life is a life worth dying for.
 
I just want to remind this thread that Sinomar called Trout a cute retarded neighbor's dog or something close before sobering up and editing it out to look cool in his own mind, and stuff.

Going the sober route was wrong Sinomar. Pure WRONG :mad:
It's good to have you back baby.
 
@jazzspazz: I realize you're not into doctrine and all, but you're an excellent job trying to defend the faith anyway. Cheers!


I have numerous friends and mission buddies leaving the LDS church. Most of it ranges from polygamy, issues with Joseph Smith, or blacks in the priesthood, etc. Just curious on what other people's experiences were like.

Have you ever showed up to church with a hangover? Never mix church and headaches.
 
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