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Dr. Behe was a very good biochemist. However, he has not been a good evolutionary biologist.

Evolutionary biologists? Those are the very cultists who turned Darwin's busted theory into religious dogma forced on public school kids.

What do these ESP biologists even do besides spend money that should go toward beneficial science on trying to disprove God?
 
Nature tends from order to disorder. Life flows the opposite way, making it an anti-entropic force.

There is no law of Thermodynamics that says "nature tends from order to disorder". In fact, it's flatly false. A snowflake is more ordered than the water it was made from.

I know which law you are trying for, but you can't even state it correctly. Do you want my help in explaining your position to you?
 
There is no law of Thermodynamics that says "nature tends from order to disorder". In fact, it's flatly false. A snowflake is more ordered than the water it was made from.

I know which law you are trying for, but you can't even state it correctly. Do you want my help in explaining your position to you?

For what it's worth, I'll second this Sapa.

Your [not so uncommon] thermodynamics idea fails to quantify the +/- randomness, to start. Creating order requires energy, thus obeying the law as heat is let off from the process. Entropy is obeyed.
 
There is no law of Thermodynamics that says "nature tends from order to disorder". In fact, it's flatly false. A snowflake is more ordered than the water it was made from.

I know which law you are trying for, but you can't even state it correctly. Do you want my help in explaining your position to you?

The confusion about disorder and entropy comes from an 1898 statement by a brilliant theoretical physicist whose mathematical contributions to thermodynamics and entropy are still totally valid. However, his attempt to interpret entropy in simple language was incorrect.

Entropy: The natural direction of energy flow is from concentrated to dispersed.

Energy is required to make a snowflake from water, so your example to dismiss order---> disorder was a fail.

The concept I was going for is still valid. The moment something is built (intelligently designed) the minute it starts breaking down (becoming less ordered/concentrated).
Humans grow to a peak (about 21 years) and then start breaking down. Plants grow to their potential (design) and then deteriorate. The force that pushes for life is intelligence (mother nature if you will). It doesn't stem from random mutations or accidents like the Darwiniac dogma states.
 
For what it's worth, I'll second this Sapa.

Your [not so uncommon] thermodynamics idea fails to quantify the +/- randomness, to start. Creating order requires energy, thus obeying the law as heat is let off from the process. Entropy is obeyed.

I've heard some great scientists wonder about the things we don't understand, listing the anti-entropic force/power that "wound up" the cosmos in the first place. The heat capacity of water vapor, even at 32 degrees, compared to the heat content of the same water vapor atoms arranged in a form of ice called a snowflake, is greater. When that vapor solidifies into ice, the air around is warmed by the quantity of heat called the heat of sublimation. It takes energy to melt and vaporize that same flake, the same amount of energy.

Most natural processes involve a release of heat to the environment, or other dispersals of energy. Unless someone knows how to use energy from elsewhere to create something that represents an "ordered" store of energy of some kind, like say an atom.

Folks who believe it's unecessary to invoke the god concept in dealing with the cosmos still do essentially the same thing when they invoke the Big Bang or some other theory of creation/origin.

I'm seconding Sapa here, in case anyone can't follow my little rant.
 
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The confusion about disorder and entropy comes from an 1898 statement by a brilliant theoretical physicist whose mathematical contributions to thermodynamics and entropy are still totally valid. However, his attempt to interpret entropy in simple language was incorrect.

Entropy: The natural direction of energy flow is from concentrated to dispersed.

Energy is required to make a snowflake from water, so your example to dismiss order---> disorder was a fail.

The concept I was going for is still valid. The moment something is built (intelligently designed) the minute it starts breaking down (becoming less ordered/concentrated).
Humans grow to a peak (about 21 years) and then start breaking down. Plants grow to their potential (design) and then deteriorate. The force that pushes for life is intelligence (mother nature if you will). It doesn't stem from random mutations or accidents like the Darwiniac dogma states.

Who are you, my physicist?




Uh...hmm...wrong thread.
 
I've heard some great scientists wonder about the things we don't understand, listing the anti-entropic force/power that "wound up" the cosmos in the first place. The heat capacity of water vapor, even at 32 degrees, compared to the heat content of the same water vapor atoms arranged in a form of ice called a snowflake, is greater. When that vapor solidifies into ice, the air around is warmed by the quantity of heat called the heat of sublimation. It takes energy to melt and vaporize that same flake, the same amount of energy.

Most natural processes involve a release of heat to the environment, or other dispersals of energy. Unless someone knows how to use energy from elsewhere to create something that represents and "ordered" store of energy of some kind, like say an atom.

Folks who believe it's unecessary to invoke the god concept in dealing with the cosmos still do essentially the same thing when they invoke the Big Bang or some other theory of creation/origin.

I'm seconding Sapa here, in case anyone can't follow my little rant.

I thought his word usage was interesting.

"Creating order requires energy"
 
The concept I was going for is still valid. The moment something is built (intelligently designed) the minute it starts breaking down (becoming less ordered/concentrated).
Humans grow to a peak (about 21 years) and then start breaking down. Plants grow to their potential (design) and then deteriorate. The force that pushes for life is intelligence (mother nature if you will). It doesn't stem from random mutations or accidents like the Darwiniac dogma states.

I've heard some great scientists wonder about the things we don't understand, listing the anti-entropic force/power that "wound up" the cosmos in the first place.

Most natural processes involve a release of heat to the environment, or other dispersals of energy. Unless someone knows how to use energy from elsewhere to create something that represents and "ordered" store of energy of some kind, like say an atom.

Folks who believe it's unecessary to invoke the god concept in dealing with the cosmos still do essentially the same thing when they invoke the Big Bang or some other theory of creation/origin.

Hence the big, banging question of the day (along with a TOE), but we got there the fun way, dumbed down as we preferred. Maybe the big braniacs have solved this as well, but I don't remember seeing anything about The Spark. Also, as the atheist Stephen Hawking explained (in A Brief History of Time, I believe), why is the universe expanding at an exactly perfect rate to balance gravity from either collapsing or failing to hold the universe together? Infinite possibilities, yet The Spark picked the one in a trillion trillion trillion expansion rates. What a coincidence without a God! OK, here comes the smart people to tell me why this is now incorrect.
 
The confusion about disorder and entropy comes from an 1898 statement by a brilliant theoretical physicist whose mathematical contributions to thermodynamics and entropy are still totally valid. However, his attempt to interpret entropy in simple language was incorrect.

As yourse continues to be.

Entropy: The natural direction of energy flow is from concentrated to dispersed.

Again, physically incorrect. The natural direction of energy flow around a black hole (and to a lesser degree, any object of mass) is from dispersion to concentration. I don't mind that you continue to embarrass yourself, but I again offer to explain your position to you, if you so desire. It will still be wrong, but that way you could at least be correctly stating the principle before misapplying it.

Energy is required to make a snowflake from water, so your example to dismiss order---> disorder was a fail.

Going to a snowflake from water entails a loss of energy in the water. No external energy source is required. So, even though my example was a naturally occuring phenomenon of order from disorder rebutted your original claim, and even though you decided tomove the goal posts to energy flow because you couldn't support your original contention, you still got it wrong.

The concept I was going for is still valid.

YOu don't understand the concept you are going for.

The moment something is built (intelligently designed) the minute it starts breaking down (becoming less ordered/concentrated).

Software viruses do not break down.

Humans grow to a peak (about 21 years) and then start breaking down. Plants grow to their potential (design) and then deteriorate.

We have plants that are thousands of years old, with no sign of slowing down.

The force that pushes for life is intelligence (mother nature if you will). It doesn't stem from random mutations or accidents like the Darwiniac dogma states.

If anyone thinks that life is solely the result of random mutations and accidents, then they know less about science than you have shown so far. At least, now I know what you mean by the mythical group of "Darwiniacs".
 
As yourse continues to be.



Again, physically incorrect. The natural direction of energy flow around a black hole (and to a lesser degree, any object of mass) is from dispersion to concentration. I don't mind that you continue to embarrass yourself, but I again offer to explain your position to you, if you so desire. It will still be wrong, but that way you could at least be correctly stating the principle before misapplying it.



Going to a snowflake from water entails a loss of energy in the water. No external energy source is required. So, even though my example was a naturally occuring phenomenon of order from disorder rebutted your original claim, and even though you decided tomove the goal posts to energy flow because you couldn't support your original contention, you still got it wrong.



YOu don't understand the concept you are going for.



Software viruses do not break down.



We have plants that are thousands of years old, with no sign of slowing down.



If anyone thinks that life is solely the result of random mutations and accidents, then they know less about science than you have shown so far. At least, now I know what you mean by the mythical group of "Darwiniacs".

Rather than respond to every assertion here, I will deal just with the one bolded as I think it is adequate to show the error in the rest. I wonder, OneBrow, if you use any of the computer products that have been developed to create some kind of systemic "back up" in case somehow it "crashes". My wife hired somebody to come here and set up an automatic daily "save" to a remote computer which is itself multiply "backed up".

Problem is, our computer memories have a natural rate of defects occuring in accord with the principles of the Second Law of thermodynamics, and even computer viruses have a "mutation rate" which, over millions of years, might generate entirely new and bizarre "viruses" just like in real life. But, fortunately, 99% of these "new" viruses just wouldn't work.

In regard to the plants that are geologic ages "old", we also have their seeds in the geologic rock, which when washed into some surface with the right conditions, can still sometimes grow. But I'm sure there are some non-lethal changes in some of the seeds that have been kept in the solidified sediments over those ages. The seeds that sustain "lethal" changes we just don't see growing.

I have heard of the various explanations of why nature would conserve and replicate advantageous "evolutionary windfalls" and thus create a system that doesn't purely rely on random change, and could(and does) progress along the evolutionary path in an accelerated fashion, but few of the proponents of these have an answer about why "nature" wants to do this.

I on the other hand, do this when I weed my garden. . . . and when I select a fruit tree with a particularly desireable fruit and gather its seeds for a future orchard.

Of course, the answering argument that denies that nature "wants" anything is obvious on first glance. But fails on a really seriously thought-through study. The fact of "Life" itself is a statement that there is more to the ultimate design of the universe than a dedicated atheist is willing to see. The fact that the atheist doesn't "want" to see it is just his own choice.

The Bible, on the other hand, stated the case quite well a few thousand years ago: The whole world is evidence there is a god. Every pretty little flower, every butterfly, every little critter under our feet, and the very existence of cognitive intelligence within our skulls. It is all proof of God rationally undeniable and only irrationally believed to be the purposeless result of non-intelligence.
 
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