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Renewed Faith - Secret to our recent success?

jimmy eat jazz said:
I agree in principle with the observation that we ought to be respectful of other's beliefs.

I disagree, however, that one should refrain from saying something because it will offend many people, let alone one single person (especially not one single person--that's virtually impossible to achieve, unless you want rote, boring, superficial discussion--we can only reasonably control it so far if someone chooses to take offense).

In my view, criticizing benign characteristics that say nothing about what or who a person is by themselves (e.g., race, ethnicity) is always inappropriate. On the other hand, beliefs/actions are totally fair game. (Unless one uses beliefs/actions as thinly veiled code words for race--hear that CJ?) This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be respectful when commenting on other people's beliefs, but beliefs have far too great an impact not only on those who share the beliefs and on those who do not share them, to make them off limits to criticism. Just because a belief emanates from a religiously based faith, does not privilege it from other beliefs emanating from other sources. Again, however, mutual respect is generally preferable, but it cuts both ways. I'll respect your religious beliefs to the extent you keep them to yourself or discuss them when appropriate, but make a ostentatious show of them (e.g., Tim Tebow) or try to impose them on me (e.g., Rick Santorum or Utah Legislature), then I feel less constrained by rules of forbearance and politeness.
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To me you are saying you agree in principle, but not in action.

I don't think someone should take the Lord's name in vain when they know it is very offensive to people that read posts here. That was my point. I agree that I don't think a person's religion should be shoved in someones face either, to go along with the whole Tebow and any other sports figure that makes a public display of it. Religions views and thanks can be given and shown in private.

My post was about this board specifically, and not the world in general though it could apply. I don't find it rote or boring, or superficial if a poster here decided not to take the Lords name in vain in a post, when they can choose to express themselves in a different manner. There are plenty of filtered words that would be less offensive to me.

That's all I was saying. There can be very good discussions, and have been, without the use of offensive words or language. I try for the most part not to be preachy on here unless it is part of the discussion. I don't hound people too much to keep their filthy and nasty talk and innuendo to themselves, and I don't post things if I know it will be truly offensive to them. I let most stuff go, but for me taking the Lords name in vain crosses the line.

Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt I guess, because it seems it doesn't bother too many people.
 
People get offended entirely too easily. The whole reason why we have the concept of a profanity is that some people just need words that will offend them. It's like some sort of a reassuring purification thing for them.

You can't say that your faith is strong and then get offended when someone makes fun of your religion. It's like saying you trust your wife completely, yet you get jealous when she shows too much interest in what a waiter has to say.
 
JimLes said:
People get offended entirely too easily. The whole reason why we have the concept of a profanity is that some people just need words that will offend them. It's like some sort of a reassuring purification thing for them.

You can't say that your faith is strong and then get offended when someone makes fun of your religion. It's like saying you trust your wife completely, yet you get jealous when she shows too much interest in what a waiter has to say.
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Damn good post
 
JimLes said:
People get offended entirely too easily. The whole reason why we have the concept of a profanity is that some people just need words that will offend them. It's like some sort of a reassuring purification thing for them.

You can't say that your faith is strong and then get offended when someone makes fun of your religion. It's like saying you trust your wife completely, yet you get jealous when she shows too much interest in what a waiter has to say.
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This is very different than someone making fun of my religion. That doesn't bother me in the least. I can agree on that point.

I am 100% less offended by "swear words" or what people call profanity than I am by taking the Lords name in vain. You are also 100% wrong in that some people just need words that will offend them. Some people just feel the need to treat something others feel is sacred with abuse, irreverence, or contempt. You don't say that if you are not showing your disregard and contempt for that person/deity.

Your example is flawed. It's more like saying you love your wife, and standing up for her when somebody says bad things about her. I would say if you did not stand up for her you did not really love her, just as if I did not say something about taking the Lords name in vain offending me would show my lack of faith. I am showing my strong faith by standing up for something I think has high value to my faith. For the most part I let things go, but it does not lessen my faith to say something about it. There are times when you need to turn the other cheek (most of the time), but there are moments when you need to braid the whip.
 
I do think the perception of the 'religious' is too thin-skinned .. which makes them an easy target and subject to what some would call abuse. I am a non-denominational Christian .. and you can call me any bad word you want. Some can even attack 'my' Jesus. I have enough wisdom to know the difference between those that are being 'cute' and those that are seriously attacking souls.

If I'm out to dinner with my wife and a guy gives her the eye .. so what. If a guy says she's hot, so what? If a guy grabs her arm and tries to drag he to his table .. it's on.

/my take
 
PKM said:
I do think the perception of the 'religious' is too thin-skinned .. which makes them an easy target and subject to what some would call abuse. I am a non-denominational Christian .. and you can call me any bad word you want. Some can even attack 'my' Jesus. I have enough wisdom to know the difference between those that are being 'cute' and those that are seriously attacking souls.

If I'm out to dinner with my wife and a guy gives her the eye .. so what. If a guy says she's hot, so what? If a guy grabs her arm and tries to drag he to his table .. it's on.

/my take
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First two are compliments. If he gets crass or makes any attempt to touch then I rearrange his face.
 
JazzSpazz said:
I am 100% less offended by "swear words" or what people call profanity than I am by taking the Lords name in vain. You are also 100% wrong in that some people just need words that will offend them. Some people just feel the need to treat something others feel is sacred with abuse, irreverence, or contempt. You don't say that if you are not showing your disregard and contempt for that person/deity.
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I would have no problem if this stretched into other areas of life, but it doesn't. I know it doesn't in yours, as you would not be on this board if it did.

Why is religion different than music taste, political opinions, or sports fandom? Do you ever treat any of these with little regard or with contempt? Do you ever make fun of other NBA teams? Other players? Bands? Politicians? Is all that okay? Why is religion special then?

Oh, I know. You'll get offended at this too, as I'm comparing religion to sports, but to me it's the same thing. Some people choose to believe an old man lives in the sky and runs their lives, so they should love his son very much, and some people believe that if the Nuggets win tomorrow, it validates them as a person and makes them share in that success.

Ah, but religion is a deeply personal and important thing to you, whereas sports are just entertainment, right? Never mind the fact that you choose to believe whatever you believe much the same way someone chooses to follow a sports team. Who am I to judge which one of those is sacred and which one is banal?

I try not to offend people I care about, but that's more than just religion. I wouldn't make fun of my best friend's Catholic faith in the same way I would not make fun of my girlfriend from having a Katy Perry CD in her car. I think little of both, but these are people I think the world of. By the same token, I also do not feel the need to stand up to racists, anti-Semites, 9/11 conspiracy theories, or people who don't like the Beatles. All these should in theory offend me, yet I don't even think about it. Why worry about irrelevant things?
 
JimLes said:
I would have no problem if this stretched into other areas of life, but it doesn't. I know it doesn't in yours, as you would not be on this board if it did.

Why is religion different than music taste, political opinions, or sports fandom? Do you ever treat any of these with little regard or with contempt? Do you ever make fun of other NBA teams? Other players? Bands? Politicians? Is all that okay? Why is religion special then?

Oh, I know. You'll get offended at this too, as I'm comparing religion to sports, but to me it's the same thing. Some people choose to believe an old man lives in the sky and runs their lives, so they should love his son very much, and some people believe that if the Nuggets win tomorrow, it validates them as a person and makes them share in that success.

Ah, but religion is a deeply personal and important thing to you, whereas sports are just entertainment, right? Never mind the fact that you choose to believe whatever you believe much the same way someone chooses to follow a sports team. Who am I to judge which one of those is sacred and which one is banal?

I try not to offend people I care about, but that's more than just religion. I wouldn't make fun of my best friend's Catholic faith in the same way I would not make fun of my girlfriend from having a Katy Perry CD in her car. I think little of both, but these are people I think the world of. By the same token, I also do not feel the need to stand up to racists, anti-Semites, 9/11 conspiracy theories, or people who don't like the Beatles. All these should in theory offend me, yet I don't even think about it. Why worry about irrelevant things?
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The difference to me is that what I believe about my religious views gives me answers to why I am alive, and the point of why I am here, and helps me identify what I am trying to accomplish in life. The other things are things to do while I am alive, but are peripheral items that are experienced in life while not being integral to my life. To me there is nothing sacred about politics, sports, or music taste, but there is something sacred about my religion to me. This is the difference, and why I might stand up for something that has to do with my religion or something I find to be sacred.

If I know someone I am conversing with finds music to be sacred to them, then I will do my best not to offend them by saying something I know will be offensive to them. That's just courtesy that should be common, and has less to do with religion as it does with respect for others.

You comparing religion to sports does not bother me, most things either don't bother me, or I let them go. As to judging what someone thinks is sacred, that's not the point. It's about respecting other people around you. I don't care if you find toe jam to be sacred to you, I will try to respect you about it even if I think that it is silly, or dumb.

You choose not to offend your friend or girlfriend because you respect them. You choose to not filter words that will offend other people because you do not respect those people. What happened to the days when respect was common and had to be lost, similar to the whole "innocent until proven guilty" idea. This point is not to you specifically but about Americans in general.

Thoughts lead to words, and words lead to actions. If we know about racists, anti-Semites, or we don't stand up for issues we think are important... are we showing implicit agreement to the other side. Racists need to be called on their words and actions and held accountable otherwise they may see it as you agree. Too many Americans are apathetic to involvement in things, and making stands for things for the most part. Less and less people go to vote, and less and less people let their representatives know what they feel. This is part of why minority groups get what they want, they speak up, and they are loud... and even if the majority does not agree, if they do nothing the minority group gets their way. I understand not stressing over things that don't matter that you disagree with, but at some point we need to stand up and be heard about the things that do make a difference and do matter.

That was just my soapbox based on some things you said, it's not really directed at you.

I do enjoy communication and conversation, and I enjoy jokes and fun too. I just hope we can have more respect, and stand up for what we believe is important. I can respect some of the posters on this board that stand up for things like legalizing mary jane, or some of the other things that I don't agree with. I may not agree with them, but I can respect them.
 
Does 1 of every 10 threads on the Utah Jazz portion of the forum have to turn into a religious discussion?
 
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