And what will the Republicans do if they gain power? Tax cuts for the rich as usual? And impeach Democrats? That will help the grocery bill how?
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Republicans and Fascism
- Thread starter The Thriller
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Red
Well-Known Member
I have a life long interest in the subject of rural-urban divisions in the American experience. I thought Wilkinson had some very interesting insights regarding the effects of increasing urbanization, with similar political developments in both our own nation, and other Western democracies. For myself, the broader the context in which I can place things, the better chance I have in understanding change in the 21st century. I want broader contexts. I fell upon Wilkinson originally, had/has nothing to do with preconceived beliefs on my part, or seeking out confirmation bias. I had never heard of his research until quite recently. Whatever provides a broader context for understanding, and as noted, rural-urban issues and divisions have been a major theme in our history, is a very good, and very desirable thing. I suspect you would not understand any of this, since you’re likely not interested in the broader trends in our history, or in gaining context by such research. Probably why you ignored the subject of the post you’re replying to. Altogether.
So, in other words, in response to the comment of yours quoted above, apparently you’re living in an alternative reality, or whatever, since your reply has nothing whatsoever to do with my post, or my reason for posting it, and you obviously can only think small, and have no interest in a deeper understanding of American history, and the rural-urban divisions that have been a central theme in that history. Your reply is quite irrelevant to what I posted. Just so you know.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
The single most important thing they'll do is stop passing giant unfunded spending packages. The Democrats have dug a giant hole and seem to believe the solution is to keep digging. Republicans may do a bunch of silly other things but the main thing they'll do to help the grocery bill is to put down the shovel. The American economy is quite resilient and it will bounce back if we can get some leaders who will stop effing with the currency in an effort to buy votes, and messing with the lifeblood of the economy in some quixotic quest to please the god of climate.
The economy is the most important thing that directly affects the most people. I have been pointing out the exact acts that were damaging the economy and the consequences they would have for a year. I was argued with by those who insisted that everything was great because everyone had money, inflation was only milk being a quarter or two more expensive, that inflation was temporary and would be gone by March of 2022. Here we are and I was right. The politicians those people supported need to go. They were wrong. They did a lot of damage to the economy. They need to be voted out and we need some fiscal conservatives to take their place. The American voters seem to agree with me.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
Tell me something in this sphere of demographic divides that you have changed your mind on in the past two years. Bonus points if you can provide a quote of yourself saying the old thing, and a newer quote of yourself voicing the reformed opinion on whatever the topic of demographic division is.
Red
Well-Known Member
What does Wilkinson have to do with my opinions on our demographic divides? How often have I even spoken of that subject?? Besides cities tend to be more liberal, and rural areas more conservative, which seems axiomatic, and I have no reason to doubt it is still the case. But I don’t believe I have spent much time at all speaking of that demographic divide, or demographic divides in general.
Wilkinson did mention one aspect of urban life that I can see applies to me. His mentioning living in an ethnically diverse area, which many Eastern cities are, can help develop tolerance for cultural differences. I’ve been lucky to live in all Irish, all Yankee, a Little Italy, and an all Eastern Jewish neighborhood in my own life. I can relate personally to his take in that respect.
I tell you it’s a good thing to develop context when considering things like the rural-urban divide in America(which you yourself brought up in describing why you feel coastal elites vote Democrat and rural folk vote Republican), and your reply is related to that point how exactly? I simply pointed out the rural-urban divide has been a dominant theme in our history, and here is a political scientist who might shed some light that will help us better understand that history, and those differences. And in reply, you want to know if I have ever changed my mind??
It’s like you’re saying if I stick to my guns, and don’t change my mind, that this is a problem somehow? The MAGA wing of the Republican Party is a real danger to our democracy. Donald Trump was the worst president in my lifetime. I have not changed my mind on those points. Don’t intend to, either. Got a problem with that? Don’t need your permission.
Maybe an earlier claim by you tells me, and everyone else, where you’re really coming from. You claimed that my ultimate goal is to hope the final solution can be applied to MAGA supporters. You seem to have mistaken what I see and understand as “righteous anger”( I experience righteous anger toward Donald Trump for what he did to my country. He knew better, and still created the Big Lie, he still put himself over our country. This elicits righteous anger in me) as equivalent to the desire for a bloody vendetta. But, what it does not elicit is a desire to put to death millions of my fellow Americans. That’s your twisted take. That’s you, demonstrating what a sick, sick unit you truly are.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
This is fine… nothing at all wrong with this… Fascism is just fine.
View: https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1583834164226273281?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
View: https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1583544146056253441?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
View: https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1583500019486711935?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
View: https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1583834164226273281?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
View: https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1583544146056253441?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
View: https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1583500019486711935?s=46&t=TE4gxnhG6fwlLrhMOOmS9Q
It’s disturbing to me that the right has given up on American democracy and is now embracing fascism. This isn’t the first or last time a major conservative outlet has produced something like this. Why is the right both globally and nationally becoming so comfortable with fascism? Why are they so angry at the culture? Why have they given up on liberal democracy? And why do so many voters fall for this garbage?
Overthrowing democracy is easy. Re-establishing one, the democratic norms, and the freedom and rights protected in liberal democracy isn’t easy.
This is from the Federalist whose editor is married to Megan Mccain. This isn’t some outlier conservative outlet. It’s a major one that influences conservative thought and Republican policy.
Key pts below:
Seriously? There’s nothing left to conserve in America? Like… seriously? Just because gays are recognized and racism is looked down upon by the majority of society that means that liberal democracy and American culture sucks?
Huh?
Ah here we go. We must wreck American democracy in order to save it.
Oh boy
Whatever happened to winning at the marketplace of ideas? Overthrowing democracy because your ideas and policies suck just seems so lazy. Accommodation with the left is totally possible. The left is always looking to compromise.
And who will be crushed under this blunt instrument? When has this ever ended well for society?
Anyone here want to live in this society?
Who wants to live in this society?
Can anyone cite an example from the modern day of a dictatorship willingly giving up its power to a liberal democracy?
Why have republicans given up on liberal democracy?
We Need To Stop Calling Ourselves Conservatives
The conservative project has failed, and conservatives need to forge a new political identity that reflects our revolutionary moment.thefederalist.com
There is a problem on the American right that has been brewing for 20 years with the tea party, the fact that it has spilled over into a mild form of fascism says a lot about the irresponsibility of people on the right pushing things that far. Trump became inevitable because common ground that met the needs of the many was impossible. There has not been a functional political centre in the US that I can think of since first term Bill Clinton.
So there is a lot to be hated about wokism, I'm a proper socialist leftie and I hate it because it dominates so much discussion and means so little to the majority of people. It is the tail wagging the dog and its actually a distraction for fighting for things that have meaning like equal pay, legal protections for workers, wage justice. I'm sorry but I don't pay my union dues to have my union represent the exclusively .01 of the membership, I'm not dismissing their issues but there are under neoliberalism bigger issues for workers in most countries. For example my union should be jumping up and down about a living wage but they agree to unlimited wokism where I can be disciplined at work while I'm down the pub having a beer. They've signed off on a radical management woke agenda that gets used against workers, before too long it will be a breach of policy not to declare my pronoun in an email. Sorry that's ridiculous. I did a work survey last week that had half a dozen questions about my gender and sexuality, i haven't got half a dozen questions about this, let alone answers.
And more to the point what percentage of American society has a lived experience of dictatorship? Either directly or through family experience? I have it through my family, i have the lived family experience of blacklisting and forced immigration in my family, few Americans (as a percentage) have this, a lot of the people I grew up with had it. (a lot of the kids i grew up with either came from the same diasporas as my family or new ones of their own. Chile, El Salvador ect..)
I live in alarm at the rise of the far right but it hasn't happened in a vacuum, middle class left types have marginalised the traditional working class left by telling them they're bigots and dickheads and have no place in modern society. The blame lays on both sides.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
You have gone so far on the subject as to boast about your research into searching out genetic differences to explain the different actions of groups. My question over what you have changed your mind on was to your laughable insistence that you were exhibiting confirmation bias. There have been some radical changes over the past two years. Anyone who hasn't changed their view on at least one thing in the realm of demographic divides either isn't paying attention or are incapable of change.
We've seen the Hispanic block migrate from majority left to majority right, and in many recent poll they are the now most conservative of any group. In the past two years, the Black vote too has moved 12 points in the past 18 months toward the Republicans.
Democrats are lagging among Black voters, and that could cost them in November | CNN Politics
The 2022 midterm elections have already begun, with voters casting early ballots in some states. With Americans so closely divided -- see the tight Senate races and the tied generic congressional ballot -- even the slightest change in voter sentiment can make a big difference.
www.cnn.com
It isn't just ethnic blocks that are shifting quickly, it is also urban versus rural. The availability of the internet did a lot to mix the cultures but the rise of zoom meetings and remote working due to the COVID pandemic has led to urban workers to flee from urban centers into less expensive rural areas. When those well paid, educated workers migrate to rural areas they take with them their mindsets which mixes in.
As a society we made almost unbelievable changes at becoming a more homogeneous society. It is to the point that it appears to have left many searching for identity because so many things that have been there for so long have dissipated.
There was a radical change that started in 2016, and another that was supercharged in the past 2 years. Many old ideas believed to be true by nearly everyone including you have turned out to be wrong. I was asking if you noticed. What I got back were dodges and insults. That was answer enough and I more convinced than before you were exhibiting confirmation bias.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
I noticed you did not say they would stop increasing the monetary supply.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
Whereas your offered sources are non-existent.
No, you said the opposite, and it was false.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry but I majorly disagree with this.
The problem with this analysis is that it’s not the working class types who are promoting fascism, it’s the prosperous and bored middle class. There is precedent for this. Fascism typically doesn’t appeal to the working classes. Fascism appeals to middle and upper classes who feel threatened and/or are generally more conservative and want to retail their privilege. This is what’s happening in America and throughout the west.
This isn’t limited to the United States. Throughout the 1930s fascism was the right wing response from industrialists, clergymen, and landowners to the left’s working class socialism. This tradition continues into the 21st century. Look right now at the democracies seeing fascism gaining strength:
United States (tea party, Trump, Trumpism funded primarily by American oligarchs like the Mercers, Kochs, Scaifes, Waltons, etc). This wasn’t a working class movement, but a privileged, wealthy, and very white movement
UK (Brexit)
France (Le Pen)
Italy (Meloni)
Hungary (Orban)
Brazil (Bolsonaro)
Philippines (Duterte)
These aren’t poor democracies. Nor are any of these fascist leaders working to raise the working class. If poverty fueled fascism then why don’t we see fascism taking hold in Africa? If fascism was a working class movement then why don’t we see policies that benefit the working class? Almost all of these leaders to a T have worked to energize their base through xenophobia, taking over the judicial branches, co-opting law enforcement, and cutting taxes for their friends and donors.
Finally, just look at how fascism has continued to increase over the last two years despite life improving drastically for working class people. Joblessness in 2020 was far worse, wages were down, and other protections (like CHIP) didn’t exist for many working class people. Yet, fascism has continued to rise. So we have to get over this false idea that it’s fueled by the working class or by poverty. Otherwise, you’d see fascism the strongest among black and Hispanic groups, right? I think one of the biggest lies that needs to die is that poverty and hardship, not demographics, prosperity, and privilege (much influenced by the evangelical movement), is what’s fueling American fascism.
Remember, what sparked this latest iteration of fascism wasn’t poverty or some professor calling some working class stuff a racist. It was the election of a black man and the realization that America and its demographics have been changing. The fascism sparked in Europe have similar ties to fear over immigration, LGBTs, and women’s empowerment.
This isn’t a working class movement:
National Exit Polls: How Different Groups Voted (Published 2020)
Estimates from exit polls offer an initial indication of how groups voted on election night.
www.nytimes.com
Trump voter: 'He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting'
I've seen plenty of memorable quotes from Trump voters, but "he's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting" is among the most striking.
www.msnbc.com
Trump supporter who flew on private jet to Jan. 6 riot and threw media equipment outside the Capitol pleads guilty
Katherine Schwab of Texas flew to Washington with two Jan. 6 co-defendants who have already been sentenced.
www.nbcnews.com
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Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
That is because Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act in 1913 which took that power out of the hands of elected officials. I'm a big proponent of keeping government operators inside their boxes. What the Republicans elected to congress can do is stop passing massive spending packages. That will work in concert with the actions being taken by the Fed to decrease monetary supply with the end result being to help with grocery bills.