What's new

Ron Paul wins California straw poll

And for a reason, right?

Money that sits uninvested will lose relative value due to inflation. A lower capital gains tax, compared to the tax on interest (last I checked, interest and dividends were taxed at the same rate as income) encourages some types of investments (non-interest beqaring, specficially). If you have an argument that the types of investments encouraged by a lower captial gains tax was more productive to a depressed economy, I'd read it. Otherwise, raising the capital gains tax doesn't see to do much more than change investment strategies.
 
Red Flag! Challenge! Sorry dude, you're an independant in name only.

Some people insist on calling themselves independant even though they tend to vote the same way over and over again. A casual reading of your political posts in which you omitted every claim you're an independant would almost assuredly lead a reasonable reader to believe you lean right.

So, to be independant you have to adhere to the democratic party-line? Weird. Or did you mean that independants have to take a track that more often coincides with the left than the right, or they are not really independant? Weird again. Or you mean that an independant is not allowed to voice opinions counter to the prevailing opinion on a board, when those opinions are overwhelmingly left-leaning, if that person does not agree on a particular issue? Hmmm. Or is it some other flavor of "left-leaning is the ONLY right"? I think your own political biases are showing.

For the record in my voting life I have voted exactly one time for a democrat presidential candidate (first Clinton election), one time for a republican (second W. Bush election - as the lesser of 2 evils, I might add) and the remainder were third-party candidates. In local politics I have voted both for and against the same person in different elections, because I believed they were better than the other candidates the first time, and that the second time there was a better candidate than them in the field. Otherwise, I try to vote by the individual and the ssues, not the political party.

I know it is hard for party-liners to grasp that politics change, and opinions (and politicians) are never best or worst, but somewhere on a scale from best to worst. Party-liners want to be able to say "dems are always right" or "repubs are always right" regardless of the stark reality of any of the individual issues.

I would hope you could recognize that simply voting democrat, when a new candidate may have better ideas or more closely aligns with your personal ethics and beliefs, is closer to wrong than right. That is, if you can vote at all for anything other than a democrat. And that just because a democrat says something (or a republican disagrees with something, or vice versa) does not automatically make it right (or wrong).
 
So, to be independant you have to adhere to the democratic party-line? Weird. Or did you mean that independants have to take a track that more often coincides with the left than the right, or they are not really independant? Weird again. Or you mean that an independant is not allowed to voice opinions counter to the prevailing opinion on a board, when those opinions are overwhelmingly left-leaning, if that person does not agree on a particular issue? Hmmm. Or is it some other flavor of "left-leaning is the ONLY right"? I think your own political biases are showing.

No, I'm saying you're right-leaning. This hardly makes you unique. Political demography consistently shows that those who self-label as independent usually actually consistently vote in one direction. Your advocacy on the board has generally been what I could call "right sympathetic." That's not a value judgment, that's a descriptor. Really I'm going against the conflation of the label "centrist" with the label "independent."

For the record in my voting life I have voted exactly one time for a democrat presidential candidate (first Clinton election), one time for a republican (second W. Bush election - as the lesser of 2 evils, I might add) and the remainder were third-party candidates. In local politics I have voted both for and against the same person in different elections, because I believed they were better than the other candidates the first time, and that the second time there was a better candidate than them in the field. Otherwise, I try to vote by the individual and the ssues, not the political party.

To be honest, it sort of sounds like you're just not a fan of incumbents. The "lesser of two evils" language is the kind of thing I was talking about before as standard "both parties are the same" logic that to my mind is evidence of little real understanding of the very real differences in visions of society. Again, not a value judgment, but a description of a style of thought.

Simply saying you voted for a third party is not evidence, by the by, that you're not right-leaning. If you voted for the Libertarian or Constitution party candidate all the other times that hardly makes you "independent" in the traditional right/left methodology just like repeatedly voting for Ralph Nader doesn't mean you're a real centrist.

I know it is hard for party-liners to grasp that politics change, and opinions (and politicians) are never best or worst, but somewhere on a scale from best to worst. Party-liners want to be able to say "dems are always right" or "repubs are always right" regardless of the stark reality of any of the individual issues.

I welcome you to discuss any actual issues. My experience, however, is that you tend to not have a great grasp of these supposed "stark realities."

I would hope you could recognize that simply voting democrat, when a new candidate may have better ideas or more closely aligns with your personal ethics and beliefs, is closer to wrong than right. That is, if you can vote at all for anything other than a democrat. And that just because a democrat says something (or a republican disagrees with something, or vice versa) does not automatically make it right (or wrong).

I've recently posted on this very board that I would likely vote for Huntsman or Romney over Obama in a 2012 showdown. However, I should point out that this is what I'm talking about. Saying I'm liberal doesn't prove that you're not right-leaning. Again, a failure to grasp the underlying claim.
 
I'm not going to multi-quote. But I do find it interesting how you can make a judgement call based on a few posts on an internet forum. This is hardly a place for full dissertations, and most often a sounding board or fun place to argue. Maybe I want to appear right-leaning simply as counter-point to the outspoken liberals on this forum. Maybe it is just a simple response to all the absurd claims of infallability of the democratic party and it's politicians.

Also, you were the one who claimed that I cannot be an independent if I lean right. You want to back-pedal (flip-flop?) and claim it was just suggesting a right-lean as opposed to denying independence outright, feel free.

Red Flag! Challenge! Sorry dude, you're an independant in name only.

Hence, since I appear to be "right-leaning" to you from the limited concourse on this forum, I do not qualify as an independent. Ergo, independents can only be independent if they lean left, or do not even hint at leaning right? Could be construed to be what you believe from your comments. Does that represent your entire political philosophy? Probably not. Maybe making judgement calls on forum posts is an inexact science.

Next time you are in Reno let's have lunch and we can really discuss the issues. Almost all you will typically get from someone's true political bent on a forum is a mix of generalizations, rebuttals, and defenses. Hardly all-encompassing of anyone's personal philosophy.
 
I'm not going to multi-quote. But I do find it interesting how you can make a judgement call based on a few posts on an internet forum. This is hardly a place for full dissertations, and most often a sounding board or fun place to argue. Maybe I want to appear right-leaning simply as counter-point to the outspoken liberals on this forum.

You have over 4,000 posts on this internet forum. A decent percentage of those are about politics. Obviously you feel comfortable making a "judgment call" that I'm liberal (which I'll cop to) but believe it is unfair that others actually have an impression of your political opinions based upon the way that you choose to present yourself on the internet. If it's a pose, it's self-imposed, so it's hardly a sympathetic position that I shouldn't take your pose as genuine given that it's not obviously satirical.

Maybe it is just a simple response to all the absurd claims of infallability of the democratic party and it's politicians.

Gee, why would anyone think you lean right? I challenge you to find a single post on this board that says democratic politicians are infallible. It's not like we're talking about the pope here.

so, you were the one who claimed that I cannot be an independent if I lean right. You want to back-pedal (flip-flop?) and claim it was just suggesting a right-lean as opposed to denying independence outright, feel free.

You're making a distinction without a difference here. Independence implies that you don't have a set political preference, that you are independent of either party's general worldview. My position is that you lean-right and are closer to GOP lines of thought than Democrat lines of thought. I'm sure in the narrowest technical sense you aren't a member of the GOP and thus claim independence, but repeated surveys of "independent" voters reveals that they're not really independent. In the context of your posts you're basically a staunch conservative

Examples:

2nd Amendment views
Term limits advocacy
Abortion policy
GOP's present position re: National debt
Perceptions of tax burdens (some of your posts on this are straight out of the GOP talking points guide)
"Should have let the banks collapse" (a tea party argument)
"Tort Reform"
Conservative position on government action in the health care market
You even bought the Obama to Nero comparison.
Love of cheese

I could go on and on, but this is just from a quick survey of your posts in the the last five weeks. During the survey of this period of time I didn't find anything that agreed with the nominal left side of the aisle, other than statements like "I am not a Republican." I suspect you'd say you're a civil liberties type which makes you more liberal but given the above that would push you to the libertarian end of the scale, which sort of feeds my point back again.
 
2nd Amendment views
Term limits advocacy
Abortion policy
GOP's present position re: National debt
Perceptions of tax burdens (some of your posts on this are straight out of the GOP talking points guide)
"Should have let the banks collapse" (a tea party argument)
"Tort Reform"
Conservative position on government action in the health care market
You even bought the Obama to Nero comparison.
Love of cheese

I am not good at multiquoting so I can just hit it here:

2nd Amendment - I believe that guns are the right of the individual, within reason. I think we have enough regulation of guns, and I think there needs to be solid punishment connected to laws governing gun ownership, and criminal use of guns. I would approve of measures that would exact a greater punishment if a gun is used in a crime, regardless of the crime. But I also would not support legislation that restricts or invalidates the 2nd amendment. Doing some research, this is actually very close to the Democratic stance on the 2nd amendment. See https://www.blueoregon.com/2005/07/the_right_to_ke/ for an example. This is pretty close to how I feel on the subject, in broad terms.

Abortion policy - I am not pro-life, I am not pro-choice. I believe there is middle ground to be had. In this case I guess I do lean more to the right since I am against what I would term "recreational" abortions, but I recognize there are times when it would be not only appropriate but potentially necessary. Are you of the Kang camp (simpsons) "abortions for all"? Is it ok to limit, restrict, or ban something like this? Those are the big points of debate. Democrats say no, no matter what, republicans say yes, no matter what.

Term limits - I think career politicians grow out of touch with their consituency. I would like to see some kind of limits imposed at the top levels. The presidency is limited, would you like to repeal that? Would you have liked another 8 years of Reagan? This belief is not unheard of in Democratic circles either. There are of course risks associated with term limits, such as the potential that lobbyists will gain a stronger hand with inexperienced politicians. Also there is the argument that we should be able to vote in our leaders without restrictions, as that is the democratic way. I think both of these are valid concerns, among others, which makes it a hotly debated topic. But my personal opinion is that the potential benefits outwiegh the potential risks.

Financial crises (national debt, bail-outs, etc.) - so you think the bailouts of the banks, et al, was a fantastic idea and has reaped nothing but reward? If not maybe you *gasp* agree with the "tea party" as well. I think the bailouts were a gargantuan mistake. It did nothing but reinforce the fact that those institutions will never be held accountable and corruption and destruction at their hand will continue. I think it would have been better for us long-term to let those institutions fail. Short-term would have been hellish, but it is debatable if it would be worse than we are right now. If you are going to bail them out, then go all the way and institute a state-bank that supplants the others entirely. But to simply hand them the money, with no real regulation with any teeth beyond what was already in place (other than new rules such as making it harder to get a mortgage, which was needed a long time ago) was foolish in the extreme.

Taxes on the rich - Fact: the top 5% of wage-earners pay most of the income taxes collected in the country. This can not be disputed. From a raw numbers stand-point, the rich pay the most. Period. Many many low-income households pay, effectively, no income tax at all. But the group that carries the brunt of the tax burden, in terms of percentages, is the middle to upper middle class (which I have stated in the past, is the group I fit in). I have stated that I am for a fair flat tax plan, or something that spreads the burden out more equitably, but I get tired of the constant rhetoric that the only issue is that the rich don't pay enough. Please, to boil it down that simply and deny all the other problems inherent in our tax code is ludicrous. It is not, and will never be, as simple as "ok, you make lots of money, you pay half of it....you don't, so here we will give you money instead". I think Obama's most recent deficit plan is the closest approximation to veiwing the situation realistically we have seen in a long time from either side.

Health care – I haven’t liked any of the healthcare plans presented yet. So sure I (largely) agreed with the republican view that Obamacare was not what we needed. Nothing any better has been presented yet, imo, but it doesn’t mean we should simply take what is there because there is nothing else. If you loved it, good for you, we can disagree, and I applaud you for sticking to the party-line instead of thinking about the impact it could have on regular ordinary people. As someone who has relied a LOT on healthcare in the course of my life, I do not take it lightly. As an aside, notice how this fell off the radar as the political needle swings to economy and re-election. The economy is a much stronger election point than healthcare so none of them will touch it until it is brought up during debates.

Obama = Nero – I fully admit to moderately trolling on the bus thread. I truly thought it absurd to spend a million on a bus in essence just to campaign in. I would have thought it just as absurd if Bush had done it or anyone else. I used the Nero thing since it was relatively close to the other Nero thread (as in timing), so it was a form of alliteration, and I knew it would spur some kind of discussion better than simply “Obama buys a bus”. Care to point out the evidence that I “bought into” it, other than a single obviously sarcastic thread? By the way, if you read the Nero thread I (marginally) defend Obama more than I do jump on the Nero bandwagon. In fact I spend much more time in that thread discussing Nero and Caligula than Obama.

So there you have it, in broad terms and nutshells. What you get on internet forums are mostly rebuttals and defenses, and occasionally the fun of arguing things you may not fully believe, or of taking a stronger stance than you really feel, but that is a good way to look at your own beliefs anyway, arguing the other side.

Care to reveal your beliefs regarding these issues and why you dodge the “liberal” label while continually talking like one?

Oh and your attempt to insult cheese will not go unnoticed. This cheese aggression will not stand, man.
 
No they don't.

First, hyperbole to make a point about the polar differences. Obviously not everyone in every ideology believes everything the exact same way.

Second, context (rephrasing): Republicans say it is ok to restrict, limit, or ban abortions. Are you saying republicans do NOT think it is ok to restrict, limit, or ban abortions? When did the party-line change?

The Republican Party platform this year will reassert the party's opposition to abortion. And again it will not allow for exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother,

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/world/americas/31iht-31abortion.15764422.html

Ban abortion with Constitutional amendment
We say the unborn child has a fundamental right to life. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation that the 14th Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. We oppose using public revenues for abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect the sanctity of innocent human life.

https://ontheissues.org/Archive/2004_GOP_Platform_Abortion.htm
 
I'll hit this in shortish chunks (this may be a challenge for me as I'm generally verbose and I may break this promise in some areas. Right off the top, I'll take this one:

Care to reveal your beliefs regarding these issues and why you dodge the “liberal” label while continually talking like one?

Not certain where you've gotten the idea that I deny being liberal. In the post you're quoting I say that I'll cop to being a liberal. I'll do you one better and say that I'm a progressive liberal and almost assuredly someone that Millsapa would call a socialist.


2nd Amendment - I believe that guns are the right of the individual, within reason. I think we have enough regulation of guns, and I think there needs to be solid punishment connected to laws governing gun ownership, and criminal use of guns. I would approve of measures that would exact a greater punishment if a gun is used in a crime, regardless of the crime. But I also would not support legislation that restricts or invalidates the 2nd amendment. Doing some research, this is actually very close to the Democratic stance on the 2nd amendment. See https://www.blueoregon.com/2005/07/the_right_to_ke/ for an example. This is pretty close to how I feel on the subject, in broad terms.


That is almost verbatim the GOP stance on gun control. You are, in essence, saying that you don't support any more limits on firearms (i.e. "I think we have enough regulation of guns.") That's been the position of the GOP as they've repeatedly blocked items like the reenactment of the assault weapons ban. The "tough on crime" semi-compromise you push is farther up the proto-conservative path.

You're linking to a state party platform which is a pretty dangerous way to do business when you're talking about a political party's beliefs. I could use the same tactic using only Iowa and Texas' GOP party platforms to argue that the GOP largely advocates abolishing the IRS, teach creationism in schools, allow children to carry guns to school, repeal all minimum wage laws, and in very specific classifications of manure.

The national Democratic party is the party of the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban.

Here's a quick test: Do you believe the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right to own a gun? Where does your answer put you on the political spectrum.

And since you asked, my second amendment beliefs are not particularly strong but I support virtually all gun restrictions that I'm aware of.

Abortion policy - I am not pro-life, I am not pro-choice. I believe there is middle ground to be had. In this case I guess I do lean more to the right since I am against what I would term "recreational" abortions, but I recognize there are times when it would be not only appropriate but potentially necessary. Are you of the Kang camp (simpsons) "abortions for all"? Is it ok to limit, restrict, or ban something like this? Those are the big points of debate. Democrats say no, no matter what, republicans say yes, no matter what.

You've acknowledged you're a right-leaner on the issue so I don't need to go farther. I will say that we've already fought previously over the term "recreational abortion." I'm in favor of a balanced approach along the lines of a viability test.

I do think you're framing the two parties positions as overly polarized on this point. Few pro-life GOP members, especially at the national level, will individually say (notwithstanding the "official GOP platform") that abortion should be illegal in instances such as rape or life endangerment of the mother. Very few (to my knowledge, none) Democrats will argue that abortion is appropriate on the 30th day of the 8th month. Given that, to my recollection, the "middle ground" you're referring to are the generally recognized exceptions by even GOP members I think this is a place where you're assigning yourself independence where you're really essentially a party-line conservative.

Term limits - I think career politicians grow out of touch with their consituency. I would like to see some kind of limits imposed at the top levels. The presidency is limited, would you like to repeal that? Would you have liked another 8 years of Reagan? This belief is not unheard of in Democratic circles either. There are of course risks associated with term limits, such as the potential that lobbyists will gain a stronger hand with inexperienced politicians. Also there is the argument that we should be able to vote in our leaders without restrictions, as that is the democratic way. I think both of these are valid concerns, among others, which makes it a hotly debated topic. But my personal opinion is that the potential benefits outwiegh the potential risks.

Advocacy of term limits is generally associated with the GOP. GOP Senators introduced that as a Constitutional Amendment less than three years ago and many GOP leaders over the last 20 years have taken voluntary term limits pledges (many of which were broken, but that's another story). Again, this is an area of lean for you that we've identified.

Here I don't think it matters much either way. I do think it is helpful to have certain old hands in the government that are very familiar with how to operate the machinery as well as long-timers that can attempt to moderate the passions of the times. I'm against them, but not strongly so.

Financial crises (national debt, bail-outs, etc.) - so you think the bailouts of the banks, et al, was a fantastic idea and has reaped nothing but reward? If not maybe you *gasp* agree with the "tea party" as well. I think the bailouts were a gargantuan mistake. It did nothing but reinforce the fact that those institutions will never be held accountable and corruption and destruction at their hand will continue. I think it would have been better for us long-term to let those institutions fail. Short-term would have been hellish, but it is debatable if it would be worse than we are right now. If you are going to bail them out, then go all the way and institute a state-bank that supplants the others entirely. But to simply hand them the money, with no real regulation with any teeth beyond what was already in place (other than new rules such as making it harder to get a mortgage, which was needed a long time ago) was foolish in the extreme.

Here you're once again acknowledging that you support the Tea Party position so I don't think you're fighting me on "rightward lean" either.

In my mind, we should have nationalized portions of the banking industry during the crisis to save the system while ensuring we received a solid stake for our cash. You waffle on this point some, but I suspect you'd prefer we had just let them fail. In fact, you've said as much in other posts.

Taxes on the rich - Fact: the top 5% of wage-earners pay most of the income taxes collected in the country. This can not be disputed. From a raw numbers stand-point, the rich pay the most. Period. Many many low-income households pay, effectively, no income tax at all. But the group that carries the brunt of the tax burden, in terms of percentages, is the middle to upper middle class (which I have stated in the past, is the group I fit in). I have stated that I am for a fair flat tax plan, or something that spreads the burden out more equitably, but I get tired of the constant rhetoric that the only issue is that the rich don't pay enough. Please, to boil it down that simply and deny all the other problems inherent in our tax code is ludicrous. It is not, and will never be, as simple as "ok, you make lots of money, you pay half of it....you don't, so here we will give you money instead". I think Obama's most recent deficit plan is the closest approximation to veiwing the situation realistically we have seen in a long time from either side.

Up until the final sentence this is effectively the GOP line of tax burdens on the wealthy, including Fair Flat Tax (which is supported by a very vocal GOP segment). Again, you're not exactly fighting me here.

I think the situation is more complicated than you describe, especially once you account for payroll as well as income taxes, and that the rich presently enjoy the lowest tax rates that virtually anyone living has ever seen in this country. I support significant increases in the degree to which the tax scheme is progressive. That is against my present financial interest.

Health care – I haven’t liked any of the healthcare plans presented yet. So sure I (largely) agreed with the republican view that Obamacare was not what we needed. Nothing any better has been presented yet, imo, but it doesn’t mean we should simply take what is there because there is nothing else. If you loved it, good for you, we can disagree, and I applaud you for sticking to the party-line instead of thinking about the impact it could have on regular ordinary people. As someone who has relied a LOT on healthcare in the course of my life, I do not take it lightly. As an aside, notice how this fell off the radar as the political needle swings to economy and re-election. The economy is a much stronger election point than healthcare so none of them will touch it until it is brought up during debates.

In previous posts you have blamed government interference in health care for many of the problems with the system. That's what I was referring to and that's a parrot of GOP politics.

I was disappointed in Obamacare because it coddled the insurance companies. I was and am for a single payer system.

Obama = Nero – I fully admit to moderately trolling on the bus thread. I truly thought it absurd to spend a million on a bus in essence just to campaign in. I would have thought it just as absurd if Bush had done it or anyone else. I used the Nero thing since it was relatively close to the other Nero thread (as in timing), so it was a form of alliteration, and I knew it would spur some kind of discussion better than simply “Obama buys a bus”. Care to point out the evidence that I “bought into” it, other than a single obviously sarcastic thread? By the way, if you read the Nero thread I (marginally) defend Obama more than I do jump on the Nero bandwagon. In fact I spend much more time in that thread discussing Nero and Caligula than Obama.

If you say you were being sarcastic that's fine.

So there you have it, in broad terms and nutshells. What you get on internet forums are mostly rebuttals and defenses, and occasionally the fun of arguing things you may not fully believe, or of taking a stronger stance than you really feel, but that is a good way to look at your own beliefs anyway, arguing the other side.

So we have it this way, we grouped the issues into six core points plus Nero. On two (abortion and bank bailouts) you flat acknowledge you lean right. On two more (term limits and taxes) you don't acknowlege it but then repeat virtually verbatim right wing points as your stance. One another (guns) you state the right's point of view but then claim it's the Dems position based upon an Oregon state party platform. And on the last one (health care) you land in the "I didn't like any plans" zone but have a prior record that indicates rightward lean.

Would you still claim that you are truly independent rather than an effective conservative who refuses to identify with a party?
 
Since I saw you stated above that the GOP doesn't support exemptions for rape or the life of the mother I'm linking to the positions of the last several GOP presidents and candidates on the issue.

McCain: "McCain said, adding that he opposed abortion except in cases of rape and incest. He was then asked how he would determine whether someone had in fact been raped. McCain responded, “I think that I would give the benefit of the doubt to the person who alleges that.” https://www.ontheissues.org/senate/john_Mccain_abortion.htm

Bush II: Pro life with exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother Source: GeorgeWBush.com: ‘Issues: Policy Points Overview’ Apr 2, 2000

Dole: "Sen. Bob Dole's assertion this week that he "would not do it again" -- that he would favor exceptions in an anti-abortion amendment for rape, incest or if the mother's life is at risk -- offers the Republicans escape from a dilemma of their own making." https://articles.baltimoresun.com/1995-12-21/news/1995355111_1_abortion-human-life-amendment-dole

Bush I: Also supported exemptions. Source: The Abortion Debate: Understanding the Issues.

That's 20 years worth of presidential candidates. I don't think it's all that easy to claim that you're skewing far from the GOP if that's your basis for differentiation.
 
I don't quite get what you're proving here.

It's like when people insist that I am actually LDS even though I have chosen not to be.

The guy says he's independent, it's not really a big deal to link him to the GOP is it? Couldn't we just take him at his word that he doesn't get his opinions spoon fed to him from the GOP?
 
If you notice, I listed what the published PARTY stances were whenever possible, and made clear in another post that not everyone in a given party is always going to believe exactly everything that party publishes. I also fully conceded that most topics are more complex than what we can put into a single paragraph. Yet you use the argument that it is more complex than I am explaining against me. Interesting.

Among other comments, here is the evidence. I actually espouse a very democratic line in terms of gun control, and even link to a democratic site showing the similarities to an official party platform, and you post this:

That is almost verbatim the GOP stance on gun control. You are, in essence, saying that you don't support any more limits on firearms (i.e. "I think we have enough regulation of guns.") That's been the position of the GOP as they've repeatedly blocked items like the reenactment of the assault weapons ban. The "tough on crime" semi-compromise you push is farther up the proto-conservative path.

So I guess the GOP and the Democrats believe the exact same thing, since I linked to an ACTUAL verbatim democratic response on gun control, but what I stated was apparently, to your very republican-trained eye, verbatim GOP. Thanks for clearing that up. Plus your rebuttals are single lines designed to not really show what you think, but to pick a single point as contrast to try to prove everything else is the way you say it is. It is obvious you practice obfuscation regularly.

Since you have moved into minutia, ignoring what is actually being said and simply grasping at straws, examining those trees intently while ignoring the forest, in the hopes of winning the argument at all costs, then I happily concede. Frankly winning the internet argument is more important to you than me. You caught me. I am really the republican mascot. I bleed red (see what I did there?). I have an elephant tattooed on my ***. I cried the day Reagan died. I voted for every republican who ever ran...twice, even those who ran before I was born. You are officially an internet tough guy.

I have to mirror Gameface's question. I find it funny that you get so worked up that I can actually hold an opinion that is against democratic dogma without fully embracing every facet of the republican party. I have been both a registered democrat and republican at different points in my life. Politics change. Situations, both personal and public, change. New evidence is uncovered and issues evolve. I am the very most afraid of the politician who in essence says "I voted this way in 1974 and will always vote this way all the way to 2074", since it shows they are capable of neither introspection nor critical thought. There are precious few issues that should fall in that category, imo, yet some people feel the burning need to categorize people accordingly.

As I said, if you ever come to Reno and want to go to lunch and dicuss any issue you would like in a personal way, where we could really get into it, I would welcome it. But I have no need to continually prove myself to you, at least not the same need you have to label. I don't mind getting into the discussions from time to time, usually it is fun, but you are constantly on the offensive. Are you a little insecure in your stances? Just wondering.

So since you seem so intent on labeling me, then you win, I am Republican Joe. Make sure you let your drinking buddies know that you put some random guy on the intenet, whom you don't know and have never met, in his place. They will surely be impressed.
 
First, hyperbole to make a point about the polar differences. Obviously not everyone in every ideology believes everything the exact same way.

Second, context (rephrasing): Republicans say it is ok to restrict, limit, or ban abortions. Are you saying republicans do NOT think it is ok to restrict, limit, or ban abortions? When did the party-line change?

I was kinda being facetious. You could take it a few different ways

You: Republicans say yes, no matter what
Me: No they don't

Oh never mind...

But I always thought that the Republican stance was supportive of the usual exceptions until you posted their written platform just now.
 
I don't quite get what you're proving here.

To be honest I just thought it was ridiculous for him to even attempt to argue that he's a centrist in any meaningful way. It wouldn't matter if he didn't so frequently rail about "lesser of two evils" and about how awful both parties are etc etc. If you're going to repeatedly play the "I have no political loyalties" card , especially as a sign of implied moral strength (you'll note that one of his primary defense mechanisms is to assert that he's above the fray because people who acknowledge their part of a party believe their party is infallible), the legitimacy of that card is validly questionable. I'm calling ******** on that card.



If you notice, I listed what the published PARTY stances were whenever possible,

i.e. A single time. Great research there. I'm in awe.

You also apparently didn't read what I wrote about state party platforms above or you'd recognize that I've already handled this. It's simply not a reasonable interpretation any more than the national GOP wants to be associated with the Iowa GOP's 2010 platform. There is only a single line in the 2008 national Democratic party platform re: gun control and it relates to the reinstatement of the Assault Weapons Ban. Apparently "national vs. local" is too much detail.

Among other comments, here is the evidence. I actually espouse a very democratic line in terms of gun control, and even link to a democratic site showing the similarities to an official party platform, and you post this:

Great job omitting everything I wrote about why your link wasn't evidence of the national position.

The only statement in the national party platform relates to the assault weapons ban. Do you support its reinstatement?

Plus your rebuttals are single lines designed to not really show what you think, but to pick a single point as contrast to try to prove everything else is the way you say it is. It is obvious you practice obfuscation regularly.

Actually, demanding I write out my positions is obfuscation on your part. This started because I challenged the notion that you were really independent. That is a question about the right/left balance of your political beliefs. What I believe is wholly irrelevant to the question. I included a line about each because you asked me to, but it was truly out of courtesy only, hence the perfunctory treatment.

Since you have moved into minutia, ignoring what is actually being said and simply grasping at straws, examining those trees intently while ignoring the forest, in the hopes of winning the argument at all costs, then I happily concede. Frankly winning the internet argument is more important to you than me. You caught me. I am really the republican mascot. I bleed red (see what I did there?). I have an elephant tattooed on my ***. I cried the day Reagan died. I voted for every republican who ever ran...twice, even those who ran before I was born. You are officially an internet tough guy.

Ad hominem response since you can't actually deny the parallels. Confronting the myths we make about ourselves is difficult. Sorry for holding up the mirror.
 
Kicky, you look at everything as a dedicated card-carrying "progressive" would. to some that's looking at the world though a rosy set of optics. Just taking up this sort of proof against the objectivity of folks claiming to be "centrist" or independent makes you look nuts.

That's what's generally wrong with "progressives" nowadays, they really have abandoned the original meaning of the world "liberal" and just can't leave other folks alone. That probably goes a long way towards explaining why most folks are getting fed up if not PO'd at phony "liberals" who continue to push for more and more "government" solutions to everything.

Along that line, it would definitely be smart of you if you did change your handle.

I'm voting for Ron Paul every time he's on the ballot, for life. A politician who can hold a conscientious stand for personal rights and oppose unconstitutional grandiose schemes for fixing the world outta Washington DC deserves our votes.
 
Back
Top