The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I’m not exactly a neocon who wants us to be the world’s policeman but one of my favorite conservatives to follow has some interesting thoughts:
Saudi Oil Production Attacked.
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fishonjazz
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We are actually still very dependent on oil. I wish we werent though.
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framer
Well-Known Member
Yes, but not Middle Eastern Oil, which is a tremendous advantage over what we did in the past.
So, this is actually a good contribution to the topic.
I've heard some politicians on the Dem Pres trail railing about Trump being trigger happy and outtabounds even tweeting about a rif between foreign contenders with their own issues, saying it's none of our business what Iran does, or Saudi Arabia.
Pretty sure Obama's deal with Iran bought the drones and missiles used in the attack.
So, here's the reality. Obama and Hillary, and European powers, were working to counter Russian influence in the Middle East. There is some evidence that we supplied, or at least enabled, ISIS to build up control, financial means, and weapons..... to sorta help us against Assad (and Russia). No Question Russia has been supplying and supporting Iran's nuclear technology and buildup. Obama tried to outbid Russia and get Iran on our side. Everyone wanted Iran on their side, one way or another, but Saudi Arabia and Israel.
So I've known Iranians for decades, of every political side. I believe Iran cannot become a democracy or stable Western ally. Too many remnants of fascists from back in Hitler's day. But enough truly Western people in there who really want a revolution to throw the bums out. Just too many local traditionalists, enough of them Islamic fundamentalists, it'd just be another forever bloodbath of genocidal partisans.
Israeli and Mark Levinite Iran hate is pretty justified. There is really an intense political drive to destroy Israel forever, to drive the Jews into the sea, or kill them all.
All that is old news.
What is new, is simply this. Sanctions are hurting Iran. Iran oil production is impaired and reduced by lack of access to oil equipment only available from Western contractors and suppliers. In short. their oil wells are dropping off line one by one and can't be fixed.
China is heavily reliant on Iranian oil. Russia and China are exploiting this situation to the max, seeking to divide the West..... seeking to sink Trump. Both Russia and China are today doing everything they can to collude against Trump, and to influence the up coming election. Hurting Trump either in public opinion or economically is high priority political ****. And our Dems are all for it.
Trump did not retaliate on a drone that killed a US citizen a month or so ago.... was it one of our military? Can't remember. He said a response would kill hundreds of Iranians if we took out their site of launch or whatever. I'd have to go back and read up on it to get it straight again. But he did not respond to an Iranian drone attack on us, or on shipping in the Strait of Hormuz. So the Iranians are just being emboldened by out reticence.
This was an act of war on Saudi Arabia..... a step up in the proxy war in Yemen that's been going on for years.
Trump should help the Saudis repair their oil jfacility, and step up the sanctions on Iran. He should take all the evidence of Iran's involvement to the UN and seek worldwide censure of Iran. Let the damn Chines and Russians vote against it, but get the vote on record, and submit all the proofs.
I think China is smiling in hopes that the sanctions will be lifted, that we will shamefully cave to the stupid Europeans who want the Obama deal with no enforcement on Iran, just smile and do whatever business while Iran fluffs it's military power, and makes war with Saudi Arabia and Israel. China hopes to get the Iranian oil. Pretty sure that China's navy is collecting near Hormuz.
So in effect, this is China doing proxy warfare against the US.
And that is why our CFR and other BritAm influence brokers are seeing China as a breakout threat to the New World Order. The Chinese are shrewd. They are usually cautious, long-term strategists. But Xi is a nutjob who has gone off the rails, imagining he is Mao with enough economic and military swagger to actually overturn the NWO program and make it an All China world. And he's got a hundred million aging excess males who can carry sticks if not guns, anywhere he wants to go.
This might go to war.
But just let me suggest, that our JFC agenda wonks, and other political agenda wonks who have been taking help from the Chinese.... it's time to think again, and get outta the deal. It will not go well for China. China has always been the thorn in the dreams for world peace, even more than the Middle East. Simply put, they are not Western institutionalists in any sense. They are and always will be, scheming warlords. They simply will never be a stable member of any power-brokering schema for world peace.
Whenever they calculate they can have their own way, they will be all-out for it.
Before WWII, our General Stillwell spent decades in China trying to build up a power network. He was responsible for the choice to take it communist under Mao. Most recently, it has been Canada's Maurice Strong who has been the designated China manipulator.
But, imo, The Chinese have outsmarted us, taken us for the fools we are, and have advanced to this point, and have now jumped the shark on the entire plan for world management. They seriously believe they can run the show.
In terms of betrayal of international accords, Xi is as bad as Hitler. And he has the concentration camps too.
So, anyway, Trump has no choice now, and our elites see it too. We will be adjusting our economic relations worldwide. We will be bringing production and critical military technology back onshore. We will be doing a booming economy, and Xi will likely lose out inside the Chinese political system, but it will take a few years. And Chinese military adventurism will fail, and will lose allies for their system worldwide.
All we need to do about Iran's attack on Saudi is help the Saudi's rebuild their production, supply equivalent arms and defense systems, and step aside if Saudi/Israeli forces do some tactical strikes against the Cruise missile sites and drone sites. And do the deal with Afghanistan, sans the Pakistani terrorist groups, and just focus on those foreign based renegades who won't honor Taliban leadership.
like Condelezza says..... Like Soros says......Like the Rockefellers say..... Like the Queen says.....
no new war. No shock and awe exercises. No bragadoccio fluff. Just some low-key, measured and effective actions, and more sanctions. Hopefully, even our EC "allies" like the French will join the sanctions.
Who knows, if we stand united, the Chinese political system will correct itself and Xi, and come to terms with the new trade deal we're offering. Wouldn't hurt to investigate Chinese investments and assets or outlays in the US to see if they are systematically trying to influence our politics....oh wait.... they are. No secret there. Time to shame the stupids who are going along on that.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
One of the biggest risks to putting Republicans into power is that it dramatically increases the chance that we find ourselves in shooting war with Iran. Certain elements in the Republican Party have long had a hard on for going to war with Iran. That itself is a monumental f'up, but that we'd be doing it to support an autocratic regime that exports Islamic radicalism throughout the world, vigorously oppresses one-half of its population, and is waging a brutal and immoral war in Yemen, along with being thoroughly corrupt and dismembering dissidents on US soil, makes it a f'up of tragicomedy proportions.
If/when this happens, wonder if Republicans will still think SCOTUS seats was worth it.
If/when this happens, wonder if Republicans will still think SCOTUS seats was worth it.
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Khashoggi was in Turkey and inside a Saudi embassy when they dismembered him. Just to keep things straight.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
Iran was a democracy until we helped overthrow it.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
One of his few, rare, pluses.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Correct.
Also, Im unsure what Hitler has absolutely nothing to do with Iran. I’m interested in what Babe thinks Hitler has to do with modern-day Iran.
It’s my understanding that Iran is the way it is today because of our overthrow of Iran’s democracy in 1953 (Mossedgh was seen as being too leftist by Eisenhower and great Britain didn’t like the idea of Iran nationalizing their oil refineries) and empowering the ruthless and corrupt Shah. By placing him in charge and supporting him for decades, we burned bridges of what should’ve been strong healthy democratic relationships. Instead, people were oppressed and tortured by the Shah. Eventually, anti-imperialist and anti-western young people turned to fundamentalist Islam, the Ayatollah in 1979.
Iran has never been the same since.
you really ought to say more.
OK, here is a Wiki history account.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy_in_classical_Iran
As Ronald Reagan explained it, we are never..... using "we" as true of any nation or human system of governance, including nostrums like the UN....more than one generation from slavery. Or the loss of Freedom, however you imagine "freedom".
I suppose you mean when the Western progressives installed the Shah as King of Persia or something like that. Damn British always meddling everywhere. I don't think you can blame the US.
But Iran really lost their Freedom with the installation of a state religion hundreds of years ago.
today Iran is such a mess of conflicted traditions from all kinds of influences, my statement that they could not sustain a "democracy" stands.
Well, have you heard of the Ottoman Empire? HItler cultivated "friends" across the Middle East, and the influence of Nazi principles is today present in the Moslim Brotherhood, as well as in Iran's religious pricipals. Note the spelling of "Principals". It has a distinct meaning. Persons of major influence.
It is a fact I can personally attest to, that the Shah had such a force of spies in the US following dissidents around, my friends were having to set up watchers to make certain it was safe to go outside. It was nothing to kidnap a dissident and smuggle him back to Iranian camps for interrogation and such.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Actually, The United States was the key instigator of Mossedgh’s overthrow in 1953. The British approached the truman administration about it and were shown the door. They found an audience with the Eisenhower administration who were much more concerned with containing communism. The overthrown in 1953 was one of it not the first incident of the CIA actively overthrowing a Democratic government.
Kermit Roosevelt as I remember played a key role.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
This is the best book I’ve read on the 1953 overthrow of Mossadegh. It reads like a novel. I read it probably 4-5 years ago.
Amazon product ASIN 047018549X
Amazon product ASIN 047018549X
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
You are of course correct, my bad.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
You have your world wars crossed. The Ottoman Empire fell apart during WWI not WWII. Hitler didn’t cultivate relationships with the Ottoman Empire since it ceased to exist in 1918, decades before Hitler came to power.
Furthermore, Nazis weren’t interested in fundamentalist Islam as they viewed Arabs to be non-aryan, (racially inferior).
Iran didn’t belong to the Ottoman Empire. So I’m unsure why you even brought it up.
Lastly, the Shah had spies following your friends around? What the hell? How old are you? You realize that the Shah died shortly after the 1979 overthrow to cancer, right? Can we get a count on who believes this ****? Jazzfanz, by show of hands, how many of you believe that babe had friends who watched out for the Shah’s spies?
Why would spies (supporters) for the Shah be tracking down dissidents in America to being them to Iran? After 1979, the dissidents in Iran would’ve been supporters of the Shah, right? During his reign he tortured dissidents. But I’m unaware of his sending spies to capture and torture dissidents who left for America. If anything, dissidents leaving so they couldn’t start a coup in Iran would be doing him a favor. He wouldn’t want dissidents back In the country.
Cmon man.
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The time I saw these things was 1969 into 1970.
Not so sure you pay much attention, but I've talked about stuff I saw in the sixties before. I was in the Philippines for a while after that, where I knew some commies in the bundocs, too. I saw Pres. Marcos impose Martial Law to shut down the liberal press, and the area I was in was still controlled by the Huks.
Strange thing. Most of the commie big shots I knew had very rich daddies, just like here in the USA. Part of the support for my opinion that commies are all fake capitalists in one sense or another, and part of the reason Andrew Wilkow is right when he says "Socialism is not for the Socialists" and further explaining the governmental imperatives socialists seek to impose on the unwashed(as they see it) masses are things they are just too damn elite to live by themselves.
And yes, Shah had lots of spies in the USA and they actively sought to prevent the development of any "Resistance" here. And today, it's pretty much the same with the Fascist fake religious fundamentalists trying to track their dissidents, and there are a lot of them.