Should Teacher Tenure Be Abolished?

[Darkwing Duck]

You haven't tried to talk any sense to me, and the other poster you describe, Darkwing, tried to frame the conversation with a variety of lies.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Just because you horribly constructed your initial argument doesn't mean you were lying.

 

[One Brow]

I have no argument that unions have had a very profound and very positive affect on American labor practices. That being said, many unions have now become the disease. They have moved beyond guaranteeing fair employment practices to holding many American businesses hostage with unrealistic if not unsustainable demands. Case in point, NJEA.

I would certainly hope they're not being unreasonable. Since I have no idea what the typical pay is, what concessions and guarantees they've been offered in the past, or any other detail of their relationship with the state for the past ten years, I don't know if they are being unreasonable or not.

I've also personally dealt with some crazy *** unions over the years in my line of work. Stuff like forcing you to call a union worker to hook a garden hose to a water spiggot at a trade show. On Long Island, NY you need to call a union plumber to repair a cracked PVC line in a place of business. The downside is that if they find I did these things myself or hired a non-union worker they picket the business and interupt business by harassing clients.

Well, you're big on freedom, which includes the freedom to organize, right?

By the way, while I'm sure you're very capable, some people can't attach a hose without stripping the thread. If the union is responsible for maintenance, I'm sure that sort of things will upset them.

 

[One Brow]

I am sorry but teachers just don't do that much work. If you really look at what they do they work a 180 days per year and they work 6 hour days that include lunches.

There are only 255 working days in a year, so that is about 70% of what is typical. In their work day, you forgot to include morning prep time, afternoon clean-up, filling out forms, the occasional after-school activity, PTO, etc.

I know the next comment is some teacher talking about all the grading and after school work they do. Guess what if you do that you are the exception not the rule.

You think other people will pick up the grading slack if you don't? They'll plan out your lessons, including that adjustment you need to make to accomade the 1-4 special needs kids in your classes for you?

The rule is that 80% of the people in most organizations do 20% of the work and 20% do 80% of the work.

You get 80% of your business from 20% of your customers. But if 20% of your employees are doing 80% of the work, you are being a poor manager.

So I feel we should find a way to figure out the 20% doing the 80% of the work and pay them 80% of the wages.

Pay the teacher a $88K starting salary, and put 80 kids in their room? That's the smart thingto do?

By the way, I teach part-time and both my parents taught. How much perspective do you have on this?

 

[One Brow]

That is called an ad hominem attack sir.

No, it isn't. It's not even an insult. Everyone has ignorance on various topics. An ad hominem attack is not saying that a person is ignorant, but that the person is wrong because they are ugly, or some such irrelevant nonesense. When a person exhibits genuine ignorance on a subject, it is not adhominem to point this out.

 

[One Brow]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Just because you horribly constructed your initial argument doesn't mean you were lying.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.

 

[babe]

No, it isn't. It's not even an insult. Everyone has ignorance on various topics. An ad hominem attack is not saying that a person is ignorant, but that the person is wrong because they are ugly, or some such irrelevant nonesense. When a person exhibits genuine ignorance on a subject, it is not adhominem to point this out.

This is a good point so far as it goes, but in this case there was some degrading component to the expression which probably should be included in the definition of "ad hominem attack". Oh well, I'm not a good cop and I'm glad I'm not a grammar teacher or Miss Manners. The teachers in here might be feeling sensitive or defensive on this topic, but if we give up tenure or even abandon public education entirely, some people will still want to hire some really good teachers, and pay them well. Free enterprise sometimes very highly rewards those who are extremely good at what they do. Look at the pro basketball players.

I think the future of teaching belongs to those who can make the best use of new avenues of teaching, say internet resources for example. And for Conan, I bet good coaches will always be in demand. Even if we closed "public educaation" our communities would create sports competition leagues. Because we really do like to play sports.

 

[CONAN]

But look, I know my initial post in this thread was caustic. I knew I would take heat for it. That was intentional to some extent.

So why are you crying about something you knew and wanted to happen? You're weird.

 

[moevillini]

someone with 2 Rep points Neg Rep'd this post with the comment:

1. 01-16-2011 12:58 PM Thread: Should Teacher Tenure...

Way to contribute.

I guess someone is happier when topics resort to name-calling and one-upping others.
I was going to blame Conan but he only has one point. Guess I'll +Rep you now for thinking you'd do something like that.

 

[CONAN]

And for the record, I am fine with abolishing tenure. It's irrelelvant though. I don't think it's the beast the masses make it out to be.

 

[GoJazz]

There are only 255 working days in a year, so that is about 70% of what is typical. In their work day, you forgot to include morning prep time, afternoon clean-up, filling out forms, the occasional after-school activity, PTO, etc.

So the teachers work 70% of a typical year before sick time / Vacation time. Morning prep IF they do any. (When I was in high school about 1 in 5 of my teachers did) Afternoon cleanup was done during our final hour at school. So nothing there. Filling otu forms? Teachers do that? After school activiities... again about 1 in 5 teachers participated.

You think other people will pick up the grading slack if you don't? They'll plan out your lessons, including that adjustment you need to make to accomade the 1-4 special needs kids in your classes for you?

Lesson plans for most teachers were done in college or there first year teaching. Grading was done by most teachers in class. We would "trade papers". Special needs kids went to special needs classes.

You get 80% of your business from 20% of your customers. But if 20% of your employees are doing 80% of the work, you are being a poor manager.

Totally agree with you here. We have extremely poor management in the majority of the schools I have been to.

Pay the teacher a $88K starting salary, and put 80 kids in their room? That's the smart thing to do?

By the way, I teach part-time and both my parents taught. How much perspective do you have on this?

I didn't say any of this so don't try to twist the arguement. I said 20% of the teachers are doing 80% of the teaching. The other teachers are just hacks passing the time by having the kids grade papers and watch movies ect.

Listen I am not attacking good teachers. I feel like they are doing an outstanding job and should make more money. I am just merely attacking the 80% of crap teachers. If you are offended by my comments maybe you should look inside yourself and ask why am I so offended? Is it in defense of the crappy teachers or is because deep down you know you are one?

 

[babe]

So the teachers work 70% of a typical year before sick time / Vacation time. Morning prep IF they do any. (When I was in high school about 1 in 5 of my teachers did) Afternoon cleanup was done during our final hour at school. So nothing there. Filling otu forms? Teachers do that? After school activiities... again about 1 in 5 teachers participated.






Lesson plans for most teachers were done in college or there first year teaching. Grading was done by most teachers in class. We would "trade papers". Special needs kids went to special needs classes.





Totally agree with you here. We have extremely poor management in the majority of the schools I have been to.





I didn't say any of this so don't try to twist the arguement. I said 20% of the teachers are doing 80% of the teaching. The other teachers are just hacks passing the time by having the kids grade papers and watch movies ect.

Listen I am not attacking good teachers. I feel like they are doing an outstanding job and should make more money. I am just merely attacking the 80% of crap teachers. If you are offended by my comments maybe you should look inside yourself and ask why am I so offended? Is it in defense of the crappy teachers or is because deep down you know you are one?[/QUOTE]

I'll vouch for One Brow being a good teacher. Go look at his blog.

A more worthwhile question would be "Am I learning anything?" I had teachers that did very poorly in one way or another. Sometimes the kids turned into little monsters and drove them to resign. I just couldn't treat a teacher that way, and listened to what they said and did the assignments. . . . . and learned a lot.

Some of the worst teachers I had were loved by all. The history teacher who couldn't not talk about the basketball team. . . . never said anything about history or gave an assignment.

One Brow is in my opinion more interested in philosophy and logic, and loves to take in any interested person for a chance to look at a new aspect of some subject.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I'll agree with babe in the sense that too many teachers are concerned with being liked or the student's "friend" or they can't manage a class. Or sadly, they think the kids aren't capable or don't care, at least in my experience in an urban setting. That **** pisses me off to no extent because they the teachers simply suck at managing and motivating.