Stupid Pet Peeves

[JazzGal]

I'm wondering why contractors take on more work than they can do effectively. If they make people angry, doesn't this eventually hurt their bottom line? Wouldn't it make more sense to only take on work you can do in a reasonable amount of time and keep customers satisfied? I have no idea not working in the industry. I'm just wondering.

 

[Beer]

I'm wondering why contractors take on more work than they can do effectively. If they make people angry, doesn't this eventually hurt their bottom line? Wouldn't it make more sense to only take on work you can do in a reasonable amount of time and keep customers satisfied? I have no idea not working in the industry. I'm just wondering.

From an outsiders perspective. They get paid whether they take longer or not, or underbid or not. There is no real reason to not take on work they can't complete on time other than pissing someone off that will pay them regardless. So the hell with it, get money get paid. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Miggs]

Yeah I gotta agree with @Beer here. @bigb, if companies are underemployed, than their timeline should have been adjusted accordingly when telling new clients info for the job. That’s a really pisspoor reason for being behind.

@Beer. How much have you paid the guy? What %?

Out here, the general rule of thumb is 1/3 up front, 1/3 when halfway done and 1/3 when finished. My idiot friend paid a guy 100% up front. The guy never showed. Ended up just sending someone out in evenings and nights and what should have been 3-5 months became 16 or something lmao.

 

[bigb]

This post is long (like babe-esque) but,

To clear a couple things up for @JazzGal and @Wes Mantooth:
95% of my work is through General Contractors. They secure the work and then tell me about it. A lot of the time, I don’t even give them a bid. They know what my prices are and figure that in. When I do give bids (contractors I don’t do a lot of work for) I go by what the plan shows. The price I give them is what I charge, unless there are changes. If it’s something like a remodel or basement finish, that happens almost 100% of the time. The fact that a plan shows (for example) 75 outlets, 35 recessed lights, 0 cable tv or data outlets, and 20 normal lights; but the actual numbers end up being 100, 50, 12, and 25 is a big change. Am I supposed to eat that? Would you?
As I said before, nobody has enough employees right now. I get head hunted at least once a month. I have had recruiters from the union show up at my front door multiple times begging me to join and work for them. If nobody has enough guys, but everyone still demands their work be done, which gives? It’s not a secret that there aren’t enough tradesmen in the valley, state, or country. But that isn’t stopping anyone from remodeling their offices or homes or building newer bigger homes.
I am upfront with everyone I talk with about my schedule. Right now, I’m pretty much booked solid through at least the middle of November. I tell everyone that. And that’s just the work I know about right now. Like I said, my main two contractors get the work and then tell me about it. One is really good about keeping me in the loop, but the other likes to surprise me a couple days before he wants me there. How am I supposed to handle that? I do the best I can. I work probably 60 hours a week on average. That’s on site work. Then I still have to find time to do my office work. And find time to take my wife out on occasion. And find time to attend my kids sports and other activities. All to listen to people like Beer bitch about how we don‘t show up.
As far as payment goes, I don’t charge a dime up front. The only time I do is if I’ve got to purchase a bunch of expensive materials or the like. Honestly, I would probably not hire someone asking to pay them anything up front. If they say they need the money to order the materials, I offer to go with them to their supplier and pay for it in person, with delivery directly to me. That way I know I will at least get that material if they bail. I charge 70% AFTER completion of the rough (ready for drywall) and the other 30% upon full completion. That means I float hundreds or (often) thousands of dollars for weeks, all while I’m still having to make payroll, pay for the material, pay for fuel, make my vehicle payments, make the insurance premiums, etc. And then sometimes people don’t like to pay very quickly, and that stretches to months.
I would be very curious to see @Beer answer these questions:
Did you have an accurate and professional set plans drawn for your job? Or are you winging it; designing and making decisions as you go?
Are you using a general contractor? Or are you “doing it yourself”?
How many changes or additions have you made to the job since the bid stage? That would include any time you’ve changed your mind about anything (paint color, location of something, etc.). Did you get change orders before having the new work done?
When presented with an invoice, how quickly do you pay it?
How much notice did you give these contractors? Did you call with a month’s notice? Two weeks? The day before?
There’s probably a few more that I’m not thinking of right now.

 

[Miggs]

This post is long (like babe-esque) but,

To clear a couple things up for @JazzGal and @Wes Mantooth:
95% of my work is through General Contractors. They secure the work and then tell me about it. A lot of the time, I don’t even give them a bid. They know what my prices are and figure that in. When I do give bids (contractors I don’t do a lot of work for) I go by what the plan shows. The price I give them is what I charge, unless there are changes. If it’s something like a remodel or basement finish, that happens almost 100% of the time. The fact that a plan shows (for example) 75 outlets, 35 recessed lights, 0 cable tv or data outlets, and 20 normal lights; but the actual numbers end up being 100, 50, 12, and 25 is a big change. Am I supposed to eat that? Would you?
As I said before, nobody has enough employees right now. I get head hunted at least once a month. I have had recruiters from the union show up at my front door multiple times begging me to join and work for them. If nobody has enough guys, but everyone still demands their work be done, which gives? It’s not a secret that there aren’t enough tradesmen in the valley, state, or country. But that isn’t stopping anyone from remodeling their offices or homes or building newer bigger homes.
I am upfront with everyone I talk with about my schedule. Right now, I’m pretty much booked solid through at least the middle of November. I tell everyone that. And that’s just the work I know about right now. Like I said, my main two contractors get the work and then tell me about it. One is really good about keeping me in the loop, but the other likes to surprise me a couple days before he wants me there. How am I supposed to handle that? I do the best I can. I work probably 60 hours a week on average. That’s on site work. Then I still have to find time to do my office work. And find time to take my wife out on occasion. And find time to attend my kids sports and other activities. All to listen to people like Beer bitch about how we don‘t show up.
As far as payment goes, I don’t charge a dime up front. The only time I do is if I’ve got to purchase a bunch of expensive materials or the like. Honestly, I would probably not hire someone asking to pay them anything up front. If they say they need the money to order the materials, I offer to go with them to their supplier and pay for it in person, with delivery directly to me. That way I know I will at least get that material if they bail. I charge 70% AFTER completion of the rough (ready for drywall) and the other 30% upon full completion. That means I float hundreds or (often) thousands of dollars for weeks, all while I’m still having to make payroll, pay for the material, pay for fuel, make my vehicle payments, make the insurance premiums, etc. And then sometimes people don’t like to pay very quickly, and that stretches to months.
I would be very curious to see @Beer answer these questions:
Did you have an accurate and professional set plans drawn for your job? Or are you winging it; designing and making decisions as you go?
Are you using a general contractor? Or are you “doing it yourself”?
How many changes or additions have you made to the job since the bid stage? That would include any time you’ve changed your mind about anything (paint color, location of something, etc.). Did you get change orders before having the new work done?
When presented with an invoice, how quickly do you pay it?
How much notice did you give these contractors? Did you call with a month’s notice? Two weeks? The day before?
There’s probably a few more that I’m not thinking of right now.

Not sure why you’re taking this personally. I see this as a criticism of GC’s, not people like yourself.

 

[bigb]

Not sure why you’re taking this personally. I see this as a criticism of GC’s, not people like yourself.

I hate the fact that assholes lump all contractors into the same category. He’s having a bad experience right now so we’re all a bunch of dishonest pricks that screw everybody over.


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[JazzGal]

Thanks for the explanation, and thanks for keeping the lights on.

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[Beer]

I would be very curious to see @Beer answer these questions:
Did you have an accurate and professional set plans drawn for your job? Or are you winging it; designing and making decisions as you go?
Are you using a general contractor? Or are you “doing it yourself”?
How many changes or additions have you made to the job since the bid stage? That would include any time you’ve changed your mind about anything (paint color, location of something, etc.). Did you get change orders before having the new work done?
When presented with an invoice, how quickly do you pay it?
How much notice did you give these contractors? Did you call with a month’s notice? Two weeks? The day before?
There’s probably a few more that I’m not thinking of right now.

First off, @bigb I'll apologize for the generalization. That is a fair complaint and I apologize. But, also I've never heard anyone ever having an on time on budget build, reno, project, etc .... pretty much anything that involves anyone in the construction industry is going to be hell.

1. Not sure how to answer this. This is an existing house being remodeled. So we had each part come in, walk through, we told them what we wanted, picked out what we wanted from their inventory. So for painting they measured every room. For carpet and wood flooring same. For light fixtures and outlets same. They knew exactly what we wanted and we had product picked out for them to use. Should have been no surprises.

We were short on flooring in the master bathroom. Right where the tub needed to go. So of course that flooring is out of stock, so the tub can't get put in. So the plumbers are now delayed. Once again, they came in and measured and knew exactly what was supposed to go where. But we do have about 8 boxed of unopened flooring that goes to other rooms left over, so that is great. Strike one against the construction industry.

2. General contractor or the most part but we are at the house making decisions when stuff comes up. There seems to be an ungodly amount of miscommunication or no communication between the GC, the workers, the guy that works under the GC. No one is ever on the same page. Strike 2 against the industry.

3. Not much is changing. If anything they tell us it would be easier and cheaper to do B instead of what we had wanted as A. And if it makes sense we ok it. But then the easier and cheaper option turns into longer and the same price or longer. Like putting in a janitor sink istead of a farm sink in my wifes flower studio. Was supposed to be more functional, which I'm sure it will be, but not cheaper, well not after repariing walls, moving plumbing, tile back splash etc ......Strike 3.

4. I pay invoices as soon as I review them and make sure they aren't full of bull ****. Which, guess what they always are. I'm never holding things up though. I want this done ASAP.

5. We've been doing this since June. Move in date was supposed to be mid July, then end of August, now end of Sept. All because if one group ****s up then everyone else is pushed back, and so on and so forth.

6. An example. Handyman is doing the bathroom, I ask him about just tiling in the shower instead of putting in a fitted one or what not. He says, no problem, super easy, will be $2,500 at most. I get a bill for $6k. And the god damn shower isn't even done. Still need to be grouted, a few more rows of tile, fixtures, etc ..... It's been almost a month since it was started on.

I'd be willing to bet if you surveyed 100 new build or remodel customers. You'd get 1 or maybe 2 positive responses. With probably 85 highly unsatisfied customers and a few whatever's. Like I said I have never ever ever heard of a positive build or remodel. Not once. And I obviously talk about it to a ton of people right now. It's always over budget, and way behind. I understand not everything is in your control but don't act for one second like the ****** ones are in the minority because that is an absolute lie.

I am sure your are great. I'm sure you are. But dates with your wife, office work, etc .... are not my problem nor your customers problem. I just want people to show up when they say, do what they tell me they will do, and charge me what is agreed upon. If that makes me an ******* so be it.

 

[Beer]

I hate the fact that assholes lump all contractors into the same category. He’s having a bad experience right now so we’re all a bunch of dishonest pricks that screw everybody over.


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You should hate the fact that contractors are assholes and give you all a bad name. Not the other way around.

 

[bigb]

First off, @bigb I'll apologize for the generalization. That is a fair complaint and I apologize. But, also I've never heard anyone ever having an on time on budget build, reno, project, etc .... pretty much anything that involves anyone in the construction industry is going to be hell.

1. Not sure how to answer this. This is an existing house being remodeled. So we had each part come in, walk through, we told them what we wanted, picked out what we wanted from their inventory. So for painting they measured every room. For carpet and wood flooring same. For light fixtures and outlets same. They knew exactly what we wanted and we had product picked out for them to use. Should have been no surprises.

We were short on flooring in the master bathroom. Right where the tub needed to go. So of course that flooring is out of stock, so the tub can't get put in. So the plumbers are now delayed. Once again, they came in and measured and knew exactly what was supposed to go where. But we do have about 8 boxed of unopened flooring that goes to other rooms left over, so that is great. Strike one against the construction industry.

2. General contractor or the most part but we are at the house making decisions when stuff comes up. There seems to be an ungodly amount of miscommunication or no communication between the GC, the workers, the guy that works under the GC. No one is ever on the same page. Strike 2 against the industry.

3. Not much is changing. If anything they tell us it would be easier and cheaper to do B instead of what we had wanted as A. And if it makes sense we ok it. But then the easier and cheaper option turns into longer and the same price or longer. Like putting in a janitor sink istead of a farm sink in my wifes flower studio. Was supposed to be more functional, which I'm sure it will be, but not cheaper, well not after repariing walls, moving plumbing, tile back splash etc ......Strike 3.

4. I pay invoices as soon as I review them and make sure they aren't full of bull ****. Which, guess what they always are. I'm never holding things up though. I want this done ASAP.

5. We've been doing this since June. Move in date was supposed to be mid July, then end of August, now end of Sept. All because if one group ****s up then everyone else is pushed back, and so on and so forth.

6. An example. Handyman is doing the bathroom, I ask him about just tiling in the shower instead of putting in a fitted one or what not. He says, no problem, super easy, will be $2,500 at most. I get a bill for $6k. And the god damn shower isn't even done. Still need to be grouted, a few more rows of tile, fixtures, etc ..... It's been almost a month since it was started on.

I'd be willing to bet if you surveyed 100 new build or remodel customers. You'd get 1 or maybe 2 positive responses. With probably 85 highly unsatisfied customers and a few whatever's. Like I said I have never ever ever heard of a positive build or remodel. Not once. And I obviously talk about it to a ton of people right now. It's always over budget, and way behind. I understand not everything is in your control but don't act for one second like the ****** ones are in the minority because that is an absolute lie.

I am sure your are great. I'm sure you are. But dates with your wife, office work, etc .... are not my problem nor your customers problem. I just want people to show up when they say, do what they tell me they will do, and charge me what is agreed upon. If that makes me an ******* so be it.

And I’ve probably taken it a little more personally than I should have. I also will apologize.
Maybe my perspective is just different than yours. Every problem you just went through, I can easily see a reason it happens. With the flooring, you didn’t say whether the right amount was ordered and it got back ordered, or if they just didn’t order enough. I will say that you picked a really bad time to do this. The supply chains are almost nonexistent right now. On my end, panels and breakers are getting hard to find. Certain brands are basically extinct right now. Because of all this, prices are starting to go up. In this scenario, that’s not your fault, so I eat that.
I will also say that with remodels, you should expect the price to go up. I hate remodels to begin with and I don’t bid remodels. I give estimates. The older the house, the more problems you’ll run into. And the electrician’s problems become the drywaller’s problems, and then the painters problem, etc. Everyone will add some $$ to fix their portion of that problem.
I know you’ll probably disagree with me when I say this, but it sounds like your GC is just not that good. If he can’t communicate to his employees, let alone the other contractors, nothing is going to go well. Of my two main contractors, one is a very good communicator. If I don’t answer his calls and I’m supposed to be on his job, he gets a little testy. He will be on the job 90% of the time. He demands a lot from his contractors, but he takes care of us. The other one doesn’t communicate well, but the guy running his jobs does and he knows how to get stuff done.
I’m not saying there aren’t bad contractors out there. There are dumb asses and thieves and liars and, quite frankly, people who should not be allowed to have a license. But to say every one of us is horrible and a liar and a thief and there is no such thing as a good job where everything went perfectly and there were no issues is a load of ********. I’ve built two houses with two different builders. One was a great experience and the other not so much.
One other thing I’ll add is that your attitude with the workers will make a difference. If I have the choice of two jobs and one homeowner is an ******* who yells at me (for whatever reason) and the other is fun to be around and they joke with me etc. I’m going to choose the second one. Every time; until I absolutely have to go back to the first. IMO, you should not be calling anyone but the General Contractor. It’s his job and responsibility to get the other guys there.
Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would give serious thought to firing your GC and finding someone else. Obviously, I don’t know how much you’ve paid him or what stage you’re in on the job, but it’s always an option.

 

[Beer]

And I’ve probably taken it a little more personally than I should have. I also will apologize.
Maybe my perspective is just different than yours. Every problem you just went through, I can easily see a reason it happens. With the flooring, you didn’t say whether the right amount was ordered and it got back ordered, or if they just didn’t order enough. I will say that you picked a really bad time to do this. The supply chains are almost nonexistent right now. On my end, panels and breakers are getting hard to find. Certain brands are basically extinct right now. Because of all this, prices are starting to go up. In this scenario, that’s not your fault, so I eat that.
I will also say that with remodels, you should expect the price to go up. I hate remodels to begin with and I don’t bid remodels. I give estimates. The older the house, the more problems you’ll run into. And the electrician’s problems become the drywaller’s problems, and then the painters problem, etc. Everyone will add some $$ to fix their portion of that problem.
I know you’ll probably disagree with me when I say this, but it sounds like your GC is just not that good. If he can’t communicate to his employees, let alone the other contractors, nothing is going to go well. Of my two main contractors, one is a very good communicator. If I don’t answer his calls and I’m supposed to be on his job, he gets a little testy. He will be on the job 90% of the time. He demands a lot from his contractors, but he takes care of us. The other one doesn’t communicate well, but the guy running his jobs does and he knows how to get stuff done.
I’m not saying there aren’t bad contractors out there. There are dumb asses and thieves and liars and, quite frankly, people who should not be allowed to have a license. But to say every one of us is horrible and a liar and a thief and there is no such thing as a good job where everything went perfectly and there were no issues is a load of ********. I’ve built two houses with two different builders. One was a great experience and the other not so much.
One other thing I’ll add is that your attitude with the workers will make a difference. If I have the choice of two jobs and one homeowner is an ******* who yells at me (for whatever reason) and the other is fun to be around and they joke with me etc. I’m going to choose the second one. Every time; until I absolutely have to go back to the first. IMO, you should not be calling anyone but the General Contractor. It’s his job and responsibility to get the other guys there.
Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would give serious thought to firing your GC and finding someone else. Obviously, I don’t know how much you’ve paid him or what stage you’re in on the job, but it’s always an option.

I agree. Now is not a good time for really anything. We went to buy new appliances. Saw a bunch of stuff was 1/2 off, went to buy, they told us the earliest they could get it was December because Korea was pretty much shut down. Well that's not going to work so we went a different route. I assume the same issue is going on with more than electronics,

The GC sucking is very possible. He is a family friend who came very highly recommended from outsiders, so who knows. Maybe it is all on him. IDK. Just on saturday the "handyman" not sure what else to call him. The guy who is kind of doing all the general things texts us and says the carpet might be delayed due to A,B, and C. So I text the GC and then the handyman says "well, the carpet isn't getting delayed but I can only do so much because I have to wait on paint, plumbing, etc ..." So obviously there is a communication breakdown somewhere along the line. Anytime we push back on the BS someone up the line blames someone else. But like I said, this is not just a me thing. EVERYONE I talk to about this has the same story to tell. This is not an isolated issue.

I have also never yelled at anyone, or complained to anyone other than my wife. If anything I should be way more pissed that I've been out of a house for 2 months past when it was supposed to be done. I've been pretty god damned patient imo. I have only went to the GC a few times to ask WTF us going on? And why no one is showing up. Why everything keeps getting moved. If they can't handle those questions then in all honesty they can **** off and I hope they get fired.

I would fire the GC, but where does that get me? Pushed out even more just to prove a point? Everyone is busy like you said so I'm screwed. I can't move on or it's just cutting off my nose to spite my face. There is literally nothing I can do to make it better other than just doing everything on my own. Which is not great either.

The way I look at it is. A. Companies are making promises they can't keep because they know the client will have no other option when it comes down to it. B. I might just hold off paying on things that went way over budget or way over time and see where that leads. Part out of curiosity and part out of F you to these guys. If I was quoted $2,500 I'll pay $2,500 If they want to go after me for the extra, great. Prove to me or the courts why you are owed the extra. I'd bet my life they can't come up with a valid reason. And "well, we were stupid and measured wrong" isn't good enough for me.

 

[bigb]

I agree. Now is not a good time for really anything. We went to buy new appliances. Saw a bunch of stuff was 1/2 off, went to buy, they told us the earliest they could get it was December because Korea was pretty much shut down. Well that's not going to work so we went a different route. I assume the same issue is going on with more than electronics,

The GC sucking is very possible. He is a family friend who came very highly recommended from outsiders, so who knows. Maybe it is all on him. IDK. Just on saturday the "handyman" not sure what else to call him. The guy who is kind of doing all the general things texts us and says the carpet might be delayed due to A,B, and C. So I text the GC and then the handyman says "well, the carpet isn't getting delayed but I can only do so much because I have to wait on paint, plumbing, etc ..." So obviously there is a communication breakdown somewhere along the line. Anytime we push back on the BS someone up the line blames someone else. But like I said, this is not just a me thing. EVERYONE I talk to about this has the same story to tell. This is not an isolated issue.

I have also never yelled at anyone, or complained to anyone other than my wife. If anything I should be way more pissed that I've been out of a house for 2 months past when it was supposed to be done. I've been pretty god damned patient imo. I have only went to the GC a few times to ask WTF us going on? And why no one is showing up. Why everything keeps getting moved. If they can't handle those questions then in all honesty they can **** off and I hope they get fired.

I would fire the GC, but where does that get me? Pushed out even more just to prove a point? Everyone is busy like you said so I'm screwed. I can't move on or it's just cutting off my nose to spite my face. There is literally nothing I can do to make it better other than just doing everything on my own. Which is not great either.

The way I look at it is. A. Companies are making promises they can't keep because they know the client will have no other option when it comes down to it. B. I might just hold off paying on things that went way over budget or way over time and see where that leads. Part out of curiosity and part out of F you to these guys. If I was quoted $2,500 I'll pay $2,500 If they want to go after me for the extra, great. Prove to me or the courts why you are owed the extra. I'd bet my life they can't come up with a valid reason. And "well, we were stupid and measured wrong" isn't good enough for me.

There is a lot of validity to the “I can’t due this until x, y, and z are done”. Doesn’t make it any easier to accept though.
I’m glad to hear you’ve been as patient as you can be towards the contractors. Your posts made it appear to me that wasn’t the case.
My unsolicited advice would be to sit down and have a come to Jesus meeting with your GC. Tell him exactly what you’re saying here. Make him give you a firm date that is still acceptable to you and get it in writing that if you’re not done by that date you will start to deduct penalties. A $500 per day penalty will start getting everyone moving. But if you do that, be prepared to watch over them like a hawk, because some of them will try to cut corners. And you may have to compromise in some of the stuff you want. If the flooring you want is back ordered, but another one that’s close to it isn’t, you may have to compromise.


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