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The Biden Administration and All Things Politics


Red

Well-Known Member
@The Thriller, one of our favorite American historians….


 


Al-O-Meter

Well-Known Member
You say that they are criminals and should be prosecuted. Police dont prosecute. Prosecuters (lawyers) do.
Thank you Captain Obvious. Did you miss the part where I wrote "We have police and a justice system for that."

Anywho, if you think they should be prosecuted then why not by congress?
Because I believe in the separation of powers. We have a separation of powers with checks and balances for a reason. Judges *ARE* doing the sentencing because the 1/6 Committee is a Lin-Manuel Miranda musical. The court room proceedings and the musical at the capitol are not the same thing. There is no hypocrisy in being supportive of the courtroom proceedings while at the same time being dismissive of the musical at the Capitol. I'm simply treating the 1/6 Committee as the show it is, and personally I liked the work Lin-Manuel Miranda did in Moana better but Dwaye Johnson was a big part of that.
 

Al-O-Meter

Well-Known Member
Democracy depends upon knowing what's going on, operating in the shadow of a big lie, as a lot of us are doing — and even those of us who don't believe in the lie have to deal with it all the time — is incompatible with democracy. Myths and personality cults, and massive doses of self-deception, are incompatible with democracy.
Wow, he thinks a lot of things are incompatible with democracy, a lot of things that are inseparable from the human condition. Maybe that is why democracies always fail in short order and why our founders went with a constitutional republic form of government. The biggest lie around right now is the gaslighting of the United States as a democracy, which is a Catch-22. In the mind of Timothy Snyder the United States is incompatible with democracy because of the lie and self delusion about being a democracy, and the only way it could be compatible with democracy is to purge the lie of the United States being a democracy.

Meh. It is fun to play with but in the end Timothy Snyder is just some dude on the internet with an opinion.

On the topic of Catch-22, if you haven't seen the Hulu production of Catch-22, it is great. I highly recommend it.
 
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The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Wow, he thinks a lot of things are incompatible with democracy, a lot of things that are inseparable from the human condition. Maybe that is why democracies always fail in short order and why our founders went with a constitutional republic form of government. The biggest lie around right now is the gaslighting of the United States as a democracy, which is a Catch-22. In the mind of Timothy Snyder the United States is incompatible with democracy because of the lie and self delusion about being a democracy, and the only way it could be compatible with democracy is to purge the lie of the United States being a democracy.

Meh. It is fun to play with but in the end Timothy Snyder is just some dude on the internet with an opinion.

On the topic of Catch-22, if you haven't seen the Hulu production of Catch-22, it is great. I highly recommend it.

As has been explained to you several times before, the FFs feared a “direct democracy” not a representative democracy, as we have today.

Yeah… that’s uhhh alarming. I thought by 2024 they’d be touting Russian style kleptocracy. But now I think it’s probably going to happen by the midterms.

What’s sad is the misunderstanding about what the founders actually meant when they talked about terms like “democracy” and “republic.” A democracy at that time meant what we understand today as a “direct democracy.” Clearly, a direct democracy (like in Athens) where everyone gets to vote and decide things would be stupid. But no country today has a direct democracy. Democracies today have some form of electing representatives, presidents, prime ministers, chancellors, etc. Today’s “representative democracy” is no different than yesterday’s “republic.” They mean the same thing.

Republicans are claiming that we aren’t a democracy but a republic are doing this because:
A) they fundamentally misunderstand the difference between a direct democracy, representative democracy, and republic.
B) they’re trying to conflate democracy to being a direct democracy in order to justify minority rule, like what we had in the 1800s or what South Africa had until apartheid failed or like Russia today. Who are becoming minorities? White conservative Christian men. They want to rule over the majority of multiethnic people. That’s all there is to it.
And
The Constitution has been amended since then. Perhaps you didn't hear about that? Changes include the direct election of Senators and increased voting eligibility for non-property owners, non-whites, women, that those aged 18-20. We started out as a republic where one legislative branch was unelected and white property-owning men decided things for the country, and have since moved on to being a democracy.
And
Lol at him conflating democracy with direct democracy. Now I understand why his argument seemed so stupid and wrong. He was saying that we aren't a direct democracy. Well duh. Like is that even possible? Does it even exist anywhere?
Silly argument

1. So in your view, who in America, blacks, women, non-landowning white males, should see their voting rights curtailed?

2. What problems do you believe this (curtailing voting rights) would solve?
 
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The Thriller

Well-Known Member
@The Thriller, one of our favorite American historians….


Good thoughts here.

I’m not sure if Trump matters much anymore. The GOP elites, you know, the donors like the DeVos, Prince, Koch, Mercer, etc families don’t care about american democracy. The RW media ecosystem is too wealthy and powerful. And republicans are proving that you don’t have to have any alt ideas or policies. You can just distract Americans with racism and outrage and a large swath of the population will be mindlessly entertained. @Red
Snyder’s nightmare dream might happen regardless of who the GOP candidate is in 2024. We have too many elites, Fox News hosts, and mindless drones addicted to outrage who actively WANT that nightmare to happen.

A major part, the most animating part, of representative democracy is that people are supposed to care about others and political parties must compete in the marketplace of ideas for voters. That’s being rendered obsolete. So im
Not sure if trump matters going forward as long as:

1. Republicans control such large parts of the media and voting mechanisms (like gerrymandered maps). This makes it impossible for the GOP to be held accountable.
2. Large swaths of the American population remain mindless “proles” entertained by Facebook, Fox News, and boobs. This makes it impossible for self-governance as people are too distracted to be concerned with getting informed and governing. They merely jump from one outrage issue (Dr Seuss) to another (CRT) without ever actually solving problems.
 

Al-O-Meter

Well-Known Member
As has been explained to you several times before, the FFs feared a “direct democracy” not a representative democracy, as we have today.
You can repeat it all you want but it still doesn’t make what you’re saying true. We have a constitutional republic. Our Chief Executive is elected by a slate of electors in the Electoral College while the heads of our Judicial Branch are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate. Until the 17th Amendment, the people didn’t even get to vote on their Senators. The United States is a constitutional republic with a set of enumerated rights specifically designed to thwart mob rule. The United States is not a democracy now and never has been.


1. So in your view, who in America, blacks, women, non-landowning white males, should see their voting rights curtailed?

2. What problems do you believe this (curtailing voting rights) would solve?
I don’t see the world the way you do. Lumping people into this genetic trait or that ethnic heritage for determining how to treat them is a bizarre concept to me. A more direct answer to your question would be: (1) Those people who live in dense population centers should have a curtailed voice (2) to keep big cities from being the sole focus of the government. I favor a system where the Legislative Branch is bicameral with half being representative of the people and the other half being representative of the states. I also believe the slate of electors appointing the President should be similarly weighted to the way the Legislative Branch is. Luckily we can do a system like that because we aren’t a democracy and don’t have to deal with one person equaling one vote.
 
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Gameface

Vaccinated AF
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Wow, he thinks a lot of things are incompatible with democracy, a lot of things that are inseparable from the human condition. Maybe that is why democracies always fail in short order and why our founders went with a constitutional republic form of government. The biggest lie around right now is the gaslighting of the United States as a democracy, which is a Catch-22. In the mind of Timothy Snyder the United States is incompatible with democracy because of the lie and self delusion about being a democracy, and the only way it could be compatible with democracy is to purge the lie of the United States being a democracy.

Meh. It is fun to play with but in the end Timothy Snyder is just some dude on the internet with an opinion.

On the topic of Catch-22, if you haven't seen the Hulu production of Catch-22, it is great. I highly recommend it.

Confirmed, Catch-22 on Hulu is very good.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
You can repeat it all you want but it still doesn’t make what you’re saying true. We have a constitutional republic. Our Chief Executive is elected by a slate of electors in the Electoral College while the heads of our Judicial Branch are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate. Until the 17th Amendment, the people didn’t even get to vote on their Senators. The United States is a constitutional republic with a set of enumerated rights specifically designed to thwart mob rule. The United States is not a democracy now and never has been.
What you described is a representative democracy. Why does a written constitution and branches of government fundamentally change this for you?

This is how I used to describe this to students, imagine a big tree. The tree represents social and political orders. Within the tree are branches, which represent different types of governments, monarchies, oligarchies, and democracies. The stems and leaves are the specific forms of government. What you described, a constitutional republic, would be a stem which branches off from democracy.

I don’t see the world the way you do. Lumping people into this genetic trait or that ethnic heritage for determining how to treat them is a bizarre concept to me.
Wait a second, this isn't just me making stuff up. In 1787 did women have the right to vote? Did blacks? Did non-landowning white men? It's bizarre to me that you keep ignoring current voting rights issues as if there's no historic pretext.

(1) Those people who live in dense population centers should have a curtailed voice (2) to keep big cities from being the sole focus of the government. I favor a system where the Legislative Branch is bicameral with half being representative of the people and the other half being representative of the states.
The Senate and EC still exist, right?
I also believe the slate of electors appointing the President should be similarly weighted to the way the Legislative Branch is. Luckily we can do a system like that because we aren’t a democracy and don’t have to deal with one person equaling one vote.
We also see the problems with letting the minority impede the country's progress, right? The last 10 years have given us ample evidence, right? Increased polarization, anger, and now attacks on the very democracy.
I also believe that a slate of electors deciding things causes problems too, right? Like if a handful of state legislators had overruled citizens and Secs of State, then Trump easily could've been re-elected despite having lost the popular vote by 8+ million, right?
 

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