The Biden Administration and All Things Politics

[fishonjazz]

Not sure of the comparison between an entity receiving a PPP loan (and it subsequently being forgiven), and student loan forgiveness for individuals.

When businesses or entities applied for PPP Loans, it was for the purpose of retaining employees during a period in which governments were requiring people to stay home (and possibly not work). While the title is misleading, the PPP was not really a loan, every entity expected to be eligible for forgiveness, which had to be stated in the application. So as long as you met the compliance requirements (mainly being that you didn't fire, lay-off, or furlough workers), you received forgiveness. In essence, it was more like a grant award than a loan.

Of course, there are/were a litany of entities that received these funds that ended up not really needing them (or outright lied on the application). However, at the commencement of the program, nobody really knew what the ultimate impact of the pandemic and government shut-downs would have on their organizations. So it's hard to fault many of them they received the award.

As someone who has audited quite a number of PPP recipients, I can confirm that at least for some organizations, the PPP loan was the only thing that kept employees on the payroll while the government forced business closures.

This situation is absolutly nothing like individuals voluntarily electing to take out a college loan, for their own benefit, with the expectation that they will someday have to repay the loan.

Thanks for the info

 

[Safetydan]

So now the majority rule, of white upper-class, is diminishing and they feel their power being threatened, and they see many others in their "class" are getting behind the wave of change. So the solution for the minorit

Good post.
From looking at social media regarding the student loan forgiveness its seems that the prevailing attitude of those upset about it amounts to "hey, it sucked for me going through college broke and then struggling to pay my loans back after finishing college so I want it to suck for everyone else too. They should also have to struggle!"
I hate that attitude. I think we should root for our fellow americans. I want the next generation to have it better than I did.
I see the same piss poor attitude at work. Someone will get rewarded for good work performance (employee of the month bonus of a 100 dollar gift card for example) and I will just hear so many people bitching about how it isn't fair that they didn't get a gift card too. Or one shift boss will buy pizza for their shift and the next shift will complain. Im always happy for those who got pizza or a gift card even if I didn't get it. Its not like something was taken away from me.
Society has gotten so selfish and me first about everything. Its lame.

I'm with you here mostly. Just one thing, using your example of pizza at work, the people complaining about this are essentially saying "I didn't get pizza, but you guys all got pizza, therefore there should be no pizza ever." I'd much prefer they see the inherent value in the pizza (student loan forgiveness) and instead of advocating for pizza parties to never occur, they should ask for pizza parties too. I'm fine with that. I agree that they deserve nice things and a government that works for them as well.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

There may be some lack of empathy, but the responses in general from right-leaning people make me wonder if they even remember the parable of the vineyard workers.

My guess is that less than 10% of Americans know what that parable is and a fraction of that would be able to understand and apply it.

 

[Safetydan]

I'm with you here mostly. Just one thing, using your example of pizza at work, the people complaining about this are essentially saying "I didn't get pizza, but you guys all got pizza, therefore there should be no pizza ever." I'd much prefer they see the inherent value in the pizza (student loan forgiveness) and instead of advocating for pizza parties to never occur, they should ask for pizza parties too. I'm fine with that. I agree that they deserve nice things and a government that works for them as well.

Unless you're ****ing rich of course, then just go **** yourself. Thanks!

 

[The Thriller]

Not sure of the comparison between an entity receiving a PPP loan (and it subsequently being forgiven), and student loan forgiveness for individuals.

When businesses or entities applied for PPP Loans, it was for the purpose of retaining employees during a period in which governments were requiring people to stay home (and possibly not work). While the title is misleading, the PPP was not really a loan, every entity expected to be eligible for forgiveness, which had to be stated in the application. So as long as you met the compliance requirements (mainly being that you didn't fire, lay-off, or furlough workers), you received forgiveness. In essence, it was more like a grant award than a loan.

Of course, there are/were a litany of entities that received these funds that ended up not really needing them (or outright lied on the application). However, at the commencement of the program, nobody really knew what the ultimate impact of the pandemic and government shut-downs would have on their organizations. So it's hard to fault many of them they received the award.

As someone who has audited quite a number of PPP recipients, I can confirm that at least for some organizations, the PPP loan was the only thing that kept employees on the payroll while the government forced business closures.

This situation is absolutly nothing like individuals voluntarily electing to take out a college loan, for their own benefit, with the expectation that they will someday have to repay the loan.

Not sure anyone claimed they were the same. But unnecessary tax cuts for the rich that were used to merely bribe top donors? Cool. Handouts to keep your small business alive? Totally fine, definitely not socialism. Student loan forgiveness??? OMG YHATS SOCIALISM PICK URSELF UP BY YER BOOTSTRAPS.

I don’t expect you to pick up on the hypocrisy but I think most Americans see through this faux outrage on the right.

 

[The Thriller]

I think the real solution starts with making it possible for anyone who wants to* can get a college education without either going into massive debt or having to work while going to school in order to pay for it.

I agree that this isn't really fair to people who have either paid back student loans early or who avoided student loans by paying out of pocket (by working or otherwise).

*anyone who wants to who also meets enrollment criteria and academic performance/participation standards.

This also does nothing to help change the structure of college education. There’s no stopping the fleecing of students to occur all over again. I think there’s much we can do to make college more affordable. I think there’s also much to be said about focusing more on the trades on high school.

The faux outrage from the right, bitching about socialism, people not deserving X, bribery, etc just seem so hallow and insincere. Romney called this bribery. As if the massive tax cuts Repubs passed a few years ago wasn’t?

 

[fishonjazz]

I agree that they deserve nice things and a government that works for them as well.

Thats the other thing I hate about society. I see much complaining about the government and about the other side and how horrible everything is.
I have food whenever I want it. I have clean water. Shelter. Clothing. I go to movies. I go to dinner. I go on vacations (hawaii last year and a cruise this year). I go to concerts. Tomorrow im going to a bees game and doing a fantasy football draft. I go fishing and camping. I have access to healthcare and education for my daughter (or myself if I so choose). My wife and I have nice cars and a nice home. I have a job and there are a million places hiring so employment is plentiful. I go outside and no one tries to rob me or hurt me. ever. My home has never been broken into. My car hasn't been broken into in like 20 years. We have it so freaking good. Our government, whatever they are doing, isn't hindering a fantastic way of life we all live. I love my country. My state. My city. My planet. Life is so amazingly good. The government is working just fine for me if my life is this great and im this happy.
Yet everyone wants to be mad and complain about literally everything. If someone mentions the words Electric Vehicle then its a guarantee that people are going to lose it in anger. Same with CRT. Same with gas or inflation or a million other things. I just saw a friend of mine on facebook today say that liberals are the enemy and there should be a war to get rid of them all. That is so stupid. Liberals aren't the enemy. Conservatives aren't the enemy.

 

[fishonjazz]

I love this comment from Elizabeth Warren: "Senator McConnell graduated from a school that cost $330 a year," Warren wrote on Twitter on Thursday. "Today it costs over $12,000. McConnell has done nothing to fix it — and is irate that the President is stepping up to help millions of working Americans drowning in debt. He can spare us the lectures on fairness." (warren was pushing Biden to make it 50,000 in student loan forgiveness fwiw)

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Not sure anyone claimed they were the same. But unnecessary tax cuts for the rich that were used to merely bribe top donors? Cool. Handouts to keep your small business alive? Totally fine, definitely not socialism. Student loan forgiveness??? OMG YHATS SOCIALISM PICK URSELF UP BY YER BOOTSTRAPS.
I don’t expect you to pick up on the hypocrisy but I think most Americans see through this faux outrage on the right.

I'm not sure if you recognize the tone you bring to fairly mild conversations like this one, but it really discourages people with other perspectives from commenting. "I don't expect you to pick up on the hypocrisy" seems like an unnecessary jab, considering I haven't taken a shot at anyone or any idea, and I'm not necessarily opposed to some form of student loan relief.

If all you want to do is create an echo-chamber for your own thoughts and ideas, and are not receptive to at least considering other perspectives, continue as you have. If we want a sliver of different perspectives on this board, maybe consider a more mild approach to the way you communicate with others.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I love this comment from Elizabeth Warren: "Senator McConnell graduated from a school that cost $330 a year," Warren wrote on Twitter on Thursday. "Today it costs over $12,000. McConnell has done nothing to fix it — and is irate that the President is stepping up to help millions of working Americans drowning in debt. He can spare us the lectures on fairness." (warren was pushing Biden to make it 50,000 in student loan forgiveness fwiw)

The main issue I have with all of this is: Why have a legislative branch at all? They'd already largely passed the role of legislating on to the bureaucracy of the Executive Branch which has led to things like the CDC issuing eviction moratoriums. The one role the held seemed to be the power of the purse. All of the debates were over spending bills. Now that role too has been usurped by the Executive Branch. Joe Biden just spent nearly a trillion dollars and didn't bother with anyone's approval. Now you have representative from the Legislative Branch cheering their loss of power.

 

[Bucknutz]

But you don't understand fishbro, those were loans for BUSINESSES for wealt....uh, I mean successful businesspeople who provided jobs and stability for maybe 10's of Americans. Those are what should be forgiven, not any student loans!! Those need to be paid back, unless they were for wealth....crap there I go again, SUCCESSFUL and important businesspeople who are providing the trickle down that allows them to live extravagant lifestyles off the public dime help people in need find jobs!!

This is a very ignorant comment. You sound like you have never ran a business in your life. Did you own a business that got shut down for 3,6, or more months because it wasn’t “Essential”?

Did you keep your employees on staff and paid their salaries so they too wouldn’t be hurt financially? Did you go through the hell to get your funds approved?

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2006991117

An average business had about 2 months or less of cash on hand to weather a crisis. Then you had to pay to get your business to be Covid compliant to reopen. Businesses are still affected by the shutdowns. Hiring, back orders and other Covid issues.

Do you know what you could spend the PPP money on?

This is why I started posting on this site again because of these ignorant posts from smug assholes on Covid, shut downs and business. These “educators” or government workers didn’t care. They kept their jobs, income and then got paid out Covid relief money as a bonus.

What a terrible comment and a disgusting person .

 

[fishonjazz]

This is a very ignorant comment. You sound like you have never ran a business in your life. Did you own a business that got shut down for 3,6, or more months because it wasn’t “Essential”?

Did you keep your employees on staff and paid their salaries so they too wouldn’t be hurt financially? Did you go through the hell to get your funds approved?

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2006991117

An average business had about 2 months or less of cash on hand to weather a crisis. Then you had to pay to get your business to be Covid compliant to reopen. Businesses are still affected by the shutdowns. Hiring, back orders and other Covid issues.

Do you know what you could spend the PPP money on?

This is why I started posting on this site again because of these ignorant posts from smug assholes on Covid, shut downs and business. These “educators” or government workers didn’t care. They kept their jobs, income and then got paid out Covid relief money as a bonus.

What a terrible comment and a disgusting person .

Yep, those businesses were hurting and really needed that PPP money. Kind of like many of the people in student loan debt. If the student loan forgiveness was only for democrats or something then I would understand why all the republicans would be pissed. Its not though. Its for middle class and poor people struggling. This will help them. Side effect may just be that it helps every single one of us as they can now maybe spend money to help the economy and such.

 

[Bucknutz]

Yep, those businesses were hurting and really needed that PPP money. Kind of like many of the people in student loan debt. If the student loan forgiveness was only for democrats or something then I would understand why all the republicans would be pissed. Its not though. Its for middle class and poor people struggling. This will help them. Side effect may just be that it helps every single one of us as they can now maybe spend money to help the economy and such.

I never talked about student loan debt. I’m talking about PPP, Lock downs and small businesses. If you want me to post about Student Loans I can. Trump sets you off; smug assholes who rip on PPP and Covid gets me fired up.

 

[Gameface]

I never talked about student loan debt. I’m talking about PPP, Lock downs and small businesses. If you want me to post about Student Loans I can. Trump sets you off; smug assholes who rip on PPP and Covid gets me fired up.

fishonjazz mentioned your point on PPP and connected it to student loan debt. I don't think anyone gives half a **** if you post about student loan debt or not. Sorry that you feel the need to launch into personal attacks on one of the better and more reasonable posters on this site because of your Pee Pee Program sensitivity, but it was uncalled for. LogGrad is not a smug *******. He's been on this site for well over 10 years and has been a voice of reason more often than not.

I'm honestly sympathetic to you if you are a small business owner and COVID (and the response to COVID) caused you hardship.

Doesn't really change the fact that people who were willing to accept government assistance for a problem that otherwise could have been left as their own burden to bare are criticizing a new program to help people who did what they thought was right, which was to get a college education, and now face crippling student loan debt. They are being given some relief for doing the thing that is beneficial to their nation (which is to become an educated and skilled person who applies their talent to U.S. commercial and/or industrial endeavors).

Keeping businesses going through a challenging time and keeping individuals going through a challenging time are not dissimilar efforts in my opinion. Back when I thought libertarianism was about individuals and their rights and freedom I considered myself a libertarian. Once I learned that the libertarian movement was a scam by corporations to relive them of their regulatory obligations and their liability to individuals whom they hurt I realized that I wasn't that kind of libertarian. So I can see how "capitalists" and/or libertarians would be fine with PPP while also being appaled at the idea of student loan forgiveness. We all exist so that some benevolent enterprise can employ us in a way that they get 80% of the value of our work and we get less than 20% of our value returned.

 

[The Thriller]

I'm not sure if you recognize the tone you bring to fairly mild conversations like this one, but it really discourages people with other perspectives from commenting. "I don't expect you to pick up on the hypocrisy" seems like an unnecessary jab, considering I haven't taken a shot at anyone or any idea, and I'm not necessarily opposed to some form of student loan relief.

If all you want to do is create an echo-chamber for your own thoughts and ideas, and are not receptive to at least considering other perspectives, continue as you have. If we want a sliver of different perspectives on this board, maybe consider a more mild approach to the way you communicate with others.

Fair enough, my tone was overly abrasive. I apologize for that. It was out of line.

But I found this to be incredibly demeaning and inaccurate (quoted below). Most students aren’t wasting their time going to parties and sports. Most are also working jobs. Many are going to school full time and working full time.

If we want better conversations then we need to refrain from using demeaning insinuations about those who have college debt. Granted, This might not have been your intention but to me this came across as you claiming to be the responsible one while those benefitting from loan forgiveness are being rewarded for partying and not working as hard as you. I, like many others, worked full time throughout college and still ended up with debt. While I’ve paid back thousands and don’t qualify for loan forgiveness, I have no problems seeing thousands of others helped out in times of need. That’s what I see the role that government is supposed to play. Not merely defend the nation from threats abroad and sustain businesses during a pandemic. In fact, the main criticism I have over this forgiveness is I wish it were tied to some structural changes to make college and college housing more affordable. Unfortunately, this remains completely unaddressed.

I didn't have time for parties, extra-curriculars, internships, etc. Every day felt like a double-shift. I was miserable for much of those five-ish years it took to graduate. For those who chose to endure their suffering before or durring college, instead of after, this might feel like a slap in the face. More empathy is needed across the board.

Indeed, more empathy is needed across the board.

 

[The Thriller]

Keeping businesses going through a challenging time and keeping individuals going through a challenging time are not dissimilar efforts in my opinion.

@Gameface this is exactly how I feel too.

 

[Bucknutz]

fishonjazz mentioned your point on PPP and connected it to student loan debt. I don't think anyone gives half a **** if you post about student loan debt or not.

I don’t believe it’s connected. Did the government force people to go to college and take on massive loans? Did the government force people to go to expensive colleges?

Sorry that you feel the need to launch into personal attacks on one of the better and more reasonable posters on this site because of your Pee Pee Program sensitivity, but it was uncalled for. LogGrad is not a smug *******. He's been on this site for well over 10 years and has been a voice of reason more often than not.

Great to hear that. But you can still be a smug ******* on certain topics. So it’s okay to personally attack my “pee pee program sensitivity”, but not someone who has been site for 10 years. It’s okay to personally attack “trumpers“ non stop for 7 years but not a poster you find reasonable. Got it. Just selective attacks are not okay with you.

I'm honestly sympathetic to you if you are a small business owner and COVID (and the response to COVID) caused you hardship.

It’s not about me. Its about everyone who was forced to shut down. States that shut down businesses. Local cities that shut down businesses. This is why people are worse off now then before.

Doesn't really change the fact that people who were willing to accept government assistance for a problem that otherwise could have been left as their own burden to bare are criticizing a new program to help people who did what they thought was right, which was to get a college education, and now face crippling student loan debt. They are being given some relief for doing the thing that is beneficial to their nation (which is to become an educated and skilled person who applies their talent to U.S. commercial and/or industrial endeavors).

So trade careers are not beneficial? Are gig workers not beneficial? You are not forced into going to college to be beneficial to this country. Explain to me why some professions need a degree? Why does a retail manager need a degree? Can they not learn what is taught in college through experience and training in a corporate setting? Why take out a $50,000 loan to go to Ohio State to get a BA in Business and work retail? Why can’t an accountant go to a trade school for accountants that can be subsidized by the big 4 accounting firms or other firms. Have a work and learn program that benefits both sides. No they want you to take out a $80,000 loan for a masters degree that you have to spend $20,000 of on BS classes that have no association with your profession. Then get a $55k starting salary and take years to pay off loans.

There needs to be a new modern form of an education system.

Keeping businesses going through a challenging time and keeping individuals going through a challenging time are not dissimilar efforts in my opinion.

One is Forced the other is a choice.

Back when I thought libertarianism was about individuals and their rights and freedom I considered myself a libertarian. Once I learned that the libertarian movement was a scam by corporations to relive them of their regulatory obligations and their liability to individuals whom they hurt I realized that I wasn't that kind of libertarian. So I can see how "capitalists" and/or libertarians would be fine with PPP while also being appaled at the idea of student loan forgiveness. We all exist so that some benevolent enterprise can employ us in a way that they get 80% of the value of our work and we get less than 20% of our value returned.

After saying all this, I would be fine with paying off all Student debt. If and only when, there is a new education system in place and a clear choice is placed before each student. If you go to a traditional college, you have the risk of taking on debit that the government will not be backing (Should be a school risk not a government risk). Go to a trade school and have it subsidized or go to a new educational system (education marketplace) that is covered by the government.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don’t believe it’s connected. Did the government force people to go to college and take on massive loans? Did the government force people to go to expensive colleges?


Great to hear that. But you can still be a smug ******* on certain topics. So it’s okay to personally attack my “pee pee program sensitivity”, but not someone who has been site for 10 years. It’s okay to personally attack “trumpers“ non stop for 7 years but not a poster you find reasonable. Got it. Just selective attacks are not okay with you.


It’s not about me. Its about everyone who was forced to shut down. States that shut down businesses. Local cities that shut down businesses. This is why people are worse off now then before.


So trade careers are not beneficial? Are gig workers not beneficial? You are not forced into going to college to be beneficial to this country. Explain to me why some professions need a degree? Why does a retail manager need a degree? Can they not learn what is taught in college through experience and training in a corporate setting? Why take out a $50,000 loan to go to Ohio State to get a BA in Business and work retail? Why can’t an accountant go to a trade school for accountants that can be subsidized by the big 4 accounting firms or other firms. Have a work and learn program that benefits both sides. No they want you to take out a $80,000 loan for a masters degree that you have to spend $20,000 of on BS classes that have no association with your profession. Then get a $55k starting salary and take years to pay off loans.

There needs to be a new modern form of an education system.


One is Forced the other is a choice.


After saying all this, I would be fine with paying off all Student debt. If and only when, there is a new education system in place and a clear choice is placed before each student. If you go to a traditional college, you have the risk of taking on debit that the government will not be backing (Should be a school risk not a government risk). Go to a trade school and have it subsidized or go to a new educational system (education marketplace) that is covered by the government.

Did the government force anyone to start their own business? I didn't make that choice and instead got hired by a huge company and therefore didn't need any PPP.
See thing is that I see people needing help and getting help as a good thing.
Btw I went to college and was working at various jobs during that time to pay for it (I had saved up about 8,000 of my own money before leaving for college) mostly at little caesars pizza but also a few other crap jobs until I could no longer afford it and dropped out. I never took out a loan. Some people take loans for college not because they want to or choose to but because they feel they have to.
People getting help which in turn helps the country is a good thing imo. In both cases where the government helped people who needed help. No one forced anyone to take a student loan but people did, it caused major struggles, government helped. No one forced anyone to take the risk of starting their own business but people did, they had struggles due to a pandemic, the government helped. Both things (taking out loans and starting businesses) have risk.

To recap, I never took out a loan and never started a business and therefore never received any help from the government financially yet I am still ok with others getting help as I root for my fellow americans in need. I want other to succeed and to get help when they need it. Its good for them and good for the country.

 

[Bucknutz]

Did the government force anyone to start their own business? I didn't make that choice and instead got hired by a huge company and therefore didn't need any PPP.
See thing is that I see people needing help and getting help as a good thing.

No they didn’t force anyone to start their own business. So if I start my own business and it fails, does the government come in and pay for all my business debt and personal debit that I used to create a business? Because, you know I need help with my loans and debt.

Should all businesses get their debt paid for if they are not successful? Or does the person know the risk of starting a business?

So what about the persons who got hired by a smaller company that relied on the PPP to help pay for that persons salary and not lay them off even though it didn’t cover all the salary and the business paid the rest. Should the government pay the business the extra difference?

People getting help which in turn helps the country is a good thing imo. In both cases where the government helped people who needed help. No one forced anyone to take a student loan but people did, it caused major struggles, government helped.

So when someone struggles, not caused by the government, the government should help?
Once again, should the government pay a persons business debt, because they are struggling with business debt?

No one forced anyone to take the risk of starting their own business but people did, they had struggles due to a pandemic, the government helped. Both things (taking out loans and starting businesses) have risk.

Government forced is not a risk.

To recap, I never took out a loan and never started a business and therefore never received any help from the government financially yet I am still ok with others getting help as I root for my fellow americans in need. I want other to succeed and to get help when they need it. Its good for them and good for the country.

You did receive government financial help. Did you ever get money from the Covid stimulus payments?

 

[fishonjazz]

No they didn’t force anyone to start their own business. So if I start my own business and it fails, does the government come in and pay for all my business debt and personal debit that I used to create a business? Because, you know I need help with my loans and debt.

Should all businesses get their debt paid for if they are not successful? Or does the person know the risk of starting a business?

So what about the persons who got hired by a smaller company that relied on the PPP to help pay for that persons salary and not lay them off even though it didn’t cover all the salary and the business paid the rest. Should the government pay the business the extra difference?



So when someone struggles, not caused by the government, the government should help?
Once again, should the government pay a persons business debt, because they are struggling with business debt?


Government forced is not a risk.


You did receive government financial help. Did you ever get money from the Covid stimulus payments?

I always like when people who need help get help. Its really quite simple. You wont get me to complain about people needing help getting help. Sorry. Farmers have been given handouts to keep going. Love it. Banks were bailed out in the recession. A few years later the economy was booming. Thank god they got the assistance they needed even though it was their own mistakes that caused the mess. Im still happy that the country recovered. I love this country.