The costs of gay marriage

[Stoked]

Are you sure? Because they've changed their mind on other issues that were once accepted by the mainstream before they turned reprehensible. The LDS church won't allow itself to be seen as a fringe organization. They will conform with the mainstream.

I think so. I think they want to be seen as firm in their morals and convictions. Even if they did they would not pretend that they supported it all along.

You see it as them becoming fringe and they will see it as standing for what they see as right. Keep in mind that gay marriage is largely a US fight and the Mormon church is global.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Are you sure? Because they've changed their mind on other issues that were once accepted by the mainstream before they turned reprehensible. The LDS church won't allow itself to be seen as a fringe organization. They will conform with the mainstream.

The church as a whole will find a way to continue to be law abiding citizens as long as it is not in direct opposition to doctrine.
The church will not "conform with the mainstream" despite your deep abiding hopes and dreams.

 

[Stoked]

I like what you are saying but, businesses and religions are different. A race, religion, sexual orientation are generally protected from discrimination by businesses. Religions are not, so far at least, forced to bend their principles to include everyone.

So you think it is ok for a private photographer to decline to shoot a lesbian wedding based on their religious beliefs, be sued and be forced to shoot the wedding anyway?

I do not.

 

[Siro]

Not changing anything, whether legal or not I'm not okay with it. Also not okay with plenty of other legal things people do, so if/when it happens it will just be put into the legal bucket of stuff that should not be done.

I'm not like you, I don't change what I believe because people's morals, or the laws shift.

Nice try.

I am perfectly fine with changing my opinion if it contradicts the evidence. My "opinions" are simply my best effort at understanding how things really are. I couldn't care less about mainstream views. Given that Christianity nowadays would be foreign to a Christian a century ago, who in turn would be completely alien to a Christian from the 1600s, who would be a total heretic to those in middle ages (and so on, you get my drift), I'm not so sure you can say religious "morals" are anything but whatever the zeitgeist is. Those who hold on to views that the mainstream consider deeply immoral are simply relegated to the status of a cult. I doubt Mormons would do that, as pragmatic as they are.

 

[Hartsock]

So you think it is ok for a private photographer to decline to shoot a lesbian wedding based on their religious beliefs, be sued and be forced to shoot the wedding anyway?

I do not.

I think its gray area. I think the gay couple should find another photographer, but according to law the photographer was breaking the law. Would it be ok for the photog to not shoot interracial marriages, or not shoot muslim weddings? I think its kind of the same idea.

 

[Stoked]

I think its gray area. I think the gay couple should find another photographer, but according to law the photographer was breaking the law. Would it be ok for the photog to not shoot interracial marriages, or not shoot muslim weddings? I think its kind of the same idea.

Actually yes, as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us say that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn I would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something. (Yes there are some exceptions but where do we draw the line?)

 

[The Black Swordsman]

That's not the right they're asking for. And the stuff about the world's troubles is irrelevant to the subject. Also, I'm glad you think we should base our morality on what random Asian countries do. I was worried there for a second that you want to impose your Islam-inspired morality on those who don't care about Islam or what it has to say about the matter.

You have once again failed to answer a single one of the questions I brought up and completely straw manned me. I never stated we should make our morals follow Asian countries. You also failed to provide any evidence supporting your position. Overall you get an F- for your irrationality. Unfortumately for you I am a man of reason, logic, science, and rationality so I cannot agree with you.

 

[Siro]

Actually yes as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us saw that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn i would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something.

So private businesses operating in a community should not be held to the community's standards? Government is just an extension of community that intends to enforce their standards.

 

[Stoked]

You have once again failed to answer a single one of the questions I brought up and completely straw manned me. I never stated we should make our morals follow Asian countries. You also failed to provide any evidence supporting your position. Overall you get an F- for your irrationality. Unfortumately for you I am a man of reason, logic, science, and rationality so I cannot agree with you.

Perhaps Siro does not think you deserve more. I'd agree.

 

[Hartsock]

Actually yes, as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us say that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn I would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something. (Yes there are some exceptions but where do we draw the line?)

I actually agree. Its not ok, but it should be allowed. If that person wants to operate their business like that then thats their priority. But by NM law public service businesses are not allowed to discriminate. Its their law.

 

[Stoked]

So private businesses operating in a community should not be held to the community's standards? Government is just an extension of community that intends to enforce their standards.

If a business does not have the standards of the community they are in than that community can take their business elsewhere and the business will close or leave. I do not need governement telling me what I can and cannot do, with in reason. That is why I support gay marriage, pot legalization, right to refuse services as a private entity...

 

[Stoked]

I actually agree. Its not ok, but it should be allowed. If that person wants to operate their business like that then thats their priority. But by NM law public service businesses are not allowed to discriminate. Its their law.

Exactly! Keep in mind my stance is on private entities not public ones.