The future of drop-big defense; and, necessary adjustments


FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
Ultimately, the quality of the commitment and ability of the defenders matters more that the type of defense. Bad man-to-man defenders make bad zone defenders.
There’s a value added to the overall defense, even if you have just two different versions of “bad”.

In baseball, you’re a better pitcher if you have a bad fastball AND a bad change-up than if you just have a bad fastball.

Anding a different schematic really matters. And it probably helps improve the defenders timing and instincts.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Ultimately, the quality of the commitment and ability of the defenders matters more that the type of defense. Bad man-to-man defenders make bad zone defenders.
There is a lot of truth to the quality of the defenders being super important obviously... One of the benefits of a zone is it can help hide bad defenders.

To be truly effective we'd need more length on defense, but schemes do matter. You attack a zone differently and just that switch may cause issues for a handful of possessions. We were so bad even a small window of effectiveness might have made a decent impact.
 

One Brow

Well-Known Member
There’s a value added to the overall defense, even if you have just two different versions of “bad”.

In baseball, you’re a better pitcher if you have a bad fastball AND a bad change-up than if you just have a bad fastball.
How much does adding a bad slider to that mix help? Are there diminishing returns?

To my untrained eyes, we already play a couple of different defensive schemes. Maybe more zone would help.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
There’s a value added to the overall defense, even if you have just two different versions of “bad”.

In baseball, you’re a better pitcher if you have a bad fastball AND a bad change-up than if you just have a bad fastball.

Anding a different schematic really matters. And it probably helps improve the defenders timing and instincts.
The ball has to move in a zone too, so its also a way to not let the two best players on the floor control the entire possession.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
How much does adding a bad slider to that mix help? Are there diminishing returns?

To my untrained eyes, we already play a couple of different defensive schemes. Maybe more zone would help.
Zone is a whole different animal than man to man schemes. Denver likely would have shot us out of the zone or gotten a bunch of offensive rebounds and forced us back to man. But the perimeter guys can be a little more aggressive in pushing up on the outside and it can help you anchor Rudy near the basket.

I don't think you can just throw it out in the playoffs though. We needed to run it more during the year.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
I largely thing zone is trash and just a huge gimmick that will eventually get exposed, but it is useful for a few plays here and there.

The Jazz have tried it during the regular season and it usually fails miserably.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
I largely thing zone is trash and just a huge gimmick that will eventually get exposed, but it is useful for a few plays here and there.

The Jazz have tried it during the regular season and it usually fails miserably.
Any zone that isn’t given sufficient investment of time and repetitions is going to be trash.

It’s obviously a useful tool in the bag. To argue otherwise at this point is just silly.

Nobody knows how long it will be an effective tool in the league. It’ll be important next year, though—along with switching, drop big, and playing the big up at the screen.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
After watching the amazing adjustments and defenses used in the playoffs I'm even more convinced that if you want to be an elite playoff defense you have to be able to play multiple ways. Locke asked some scout or NBA guy about it and the guy was like "only some teams can do it because it is really hard". Yes, no ****, winning a championship is very hard. You likely have to do some hard things.

In addition to some personnel changes we just have to find ways to keep Rudy in the paint. It kind of just struck me when I was looking at the 538 measurement RAPTOR for the playoffs. Rudy was a -4.1 on their defensive measurement for the series. He was a +5.5 for the regular season and lead the league in the measurement. Either he is so flawed that he can be taken advantage of in the playoffs or we got lazy in putting him in positions to be successful. He didn't shut down Jokic who made tough shots in spite of his defense. He wasn't able to leave Jokic to provide enough help.

This is the thing that raises our ceiling as a playoff team imo. We have to use the regular season to experiment and find multiple ways to play in the playoffs. If we lose a few games then so be it. We can fix some bench issues and still wind up in the basic same spot if we don't find a way to make the defense at least passable even in a tough matchup.

This isn't dogging on Rudy... this is more an issue with Quin. He failed to give Rudy a great chance to be successful.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
After watching the amazing adjustments and defenses used in the playoffs I'm even more convinced that if you want to be an elite playoff defense you have to be able to play multiple ways. Locke asked some scout or NBA guy about it and the guy was like "only some teams can do it because it is really hard". Yes, no ****, winning a championship is very hard. You likely have to do some hard things.

In addition to some personnel changes we just have to find ways to keep Rudy in the paint. It kind of just struck me when I was looking at the 538 measurement RAPTOR for the playoffs. Rudy was a -4.1 on their defensive measurement for the series. He was a +5.5 for the regular season and lead the league in the measurement. Either he is so flawed that he can be taken advantage of in the playoffs or we got lazy in putting him in positions to be successful. He didn't shut down Jokic who made tough shots in spite of his defense. He wasn't able to leave Jokic to provide enough help.

This is the thing that raises our ceiling as a playoff team imo. We have to use the regular season to experiment and find multiple ways to play in the playoffs. If we lose a few games then so be it. We can fix some bench issues and still wind up in the basic same spot if we don't find a way to make the defense at least passable even in a tough matchup.

This isn't dogging on Rudy... this is more an issue with Quin. He failed to give Rudy a great chance to be successful.
Rudy's best defensive game (Game 7) was when the Jazz made him leave the paint. All series he was a step too far away off picks. At least that is what my mind remembers.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Rudy's best defensive game (Game 7) was when the Jazz made him leave the paint. All series he was a step too far away off picks. At least that is what my mind remembers.
They brought him up a bit... the biggest issue was they'd drop and Murray could decide if he had something good... if not Jokic was open and Rudy was forced to close out from the paint to the three point line without getting blown by (or just beaten... Jokic doesn't really blow by). Jokic still scored 30. I think Murray was hobbled a bit and the role players didn't shoot well.

If you figured out a zone it helps negate some the the high screen actions and you'd have Rudy waiting near the basket to help. Our perimeter guys didn't put enough pressure on Murray either so that was an issue.

Drop big is still a viable base... Its what the Lakers used to choke out Miami in the last game. Too many teams have ways of pulling Rudy away from the basket which really obviously hurts our main defensive advantage.

Its also an issue when Rudy is out of the game. Means you need another rim protecting big in the game or you gonna get lit the **** up. I think you have to be able to be more malleable and need roster/scheme flexibility.

You watch Miami try all sorts of ****... put Jimmy on AD for a while with some success.. Jae Crowder at the 5. They had KO to use in certain scenarios. They were willing and able to make a ton of adjustments. We got absolutely torched and just kinda kept rolling. In part because "we haven't really done scheme X in the season".

I just don't think finding a good backup center and asking the guys to play harder will fix our main problems. Lots of teams have shooting bigs... I think we need some defenses that will allow Rudy to stay in the paint when there is a shooting big.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
After watching the amazing adjustments and defenses used in the playoffs I'm even more convinced that if you want to be an elite playoff defense you have to be able to play multiple ways. Locke asked some scout or NBA guy about it and the guy was like "only some teams can do it because it is really hard". Yes, no ****, winning a championship is very hard. You likely have to do some hard things.

In addition to some personnel changes we just have to find ways to keep Rudy in the paint. It kind of just struck me when I was looking at the 538 measurement RAPTOR for the playoffs. Rudy was a -4.1 on their defensive measurement for the series. He was a +5.5 for the regular season and lead the league in the measurement. Either he is so flawed that he can be taken advantage of in the playoffs or we got lazy in putting him in positions to be successful. He didn't shut down Jokic who made tough shots in spite of his defense. He wasn't able to leave Jokic to provide enough help.

This is the thing that raises our ceiling as a playoff team imo. We have to use the regular season to experiment and find multiple ways to play in the playoffs. If we lose a few games then so be it. We can fix some bench issues and still wind up in the basic same spot if we don't find a way to make the defense at least passable even in a tough matchup.

This isn't dogging on Rudy... this is more an issue with Quin. He failed to give Rudy a great chance to be successful.
I love this, despite the fact that I’d explain Rudy’s flexibility a little differently than you. I think he’s the key to different systems, not just this one.
 

NUMBERICA

Well-Known Member
We need a player that can protect the rim, athletic enough to switch/close out/rush from the corner to the rim, rebound, and spread the floor. These players don’t grow on trees but I wish the Jazz had been spending the last FIVE years meaningfully trying to find/develop one instead of shoe-horning Favors, or just plugging in big wings and pretending they’re viable answers as 4s.

The Jazz can do a lot better working on different coverages, but at a certain point Rudy needs some ****ing backup and our perimeter defenders need to actually try.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
We need a player that can protect the rim, athletic enough to switch/close out/rush from the corner to the rim, rebound, and spread the floor. These players don’t grow on trees but I wish the Jazz had been spending the last FIVE years meaningfully trying to find/develop one instead of shoe-horning Favors, or just plugging in big wings and pretending they’re viable answers as 4s.

The Jazz can do a lot better working on different coverages, but at a certain point Rudy needs some ****ing backup and our perimeter defenders need to actually try.
I think Royce and Bojan at the 4 is solid enough though it would be good to get that 4/5 guy that can stretch the floor and play alongside Rudy at times. They are almost non-existent though. Wood obvi... Jamychal Green... Serge Ibaka.... PJ Tucker. You almost have to guess right and get the guy in the draft or find the next G League guy that can do it. Its why I proposed maybe getting Thad Young and seeing if the 4/5 role revives him a bit... its tough to find.

At very least we need some disruptors on the perimeter to add into the mix. I like Shaq Harrison and Kent Bazemore quite a bit.
 

l Abach l

Well-Known Member
I think Royce and Bojan at the 4 is solid enough though it would be good to get that 4/5 guy that can stretch the floor and play alongside Rudy at times. They are almost non-existent though. Wood obvi... Jamychal Green... Serge Ibaka.... PJ Tucker. You almost have to guess right and get the guy in the draft or find the next G League guy that can do it. Its why I proposed maybe getting Thad Young and seeing if the 4/5 role revives him a bit... its tough to find.

At very least we need some disruptors on the perimeter to add into the mix. I like Shaq Harrison and Kent Bazemore quite a bit.
Royce at the 4 is not solid enough
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Royce at the 4 is not solid enough
I mean the starting lineup with Joe, DM, Royce, Bojan, and Rudy is a net +12.6 per 100 possessions which is among the best of the best... sub Mike in for Joe and its a +10.5 which is still quite good. There are nights we need something more or different but he's solid and really helps make that lineup work.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I mean the starting lineup with Joe, DM, Royce, Bojan, and Rudy is a net +12.6 per 100 possessions which is among the best of the best... sub Mike in for Joe and its a +10.5 which is still quite good. There are nights we need something more or different but he's solid and really helps make that lineup work.
Yeah that's a solid regular season lineup. And a solid 1st/2nd round exit in the playoffs. We are built for regular season excitement and playoff disappointment.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
As a wing he's fine. As a 4 that's a problem.
I think he's actually better guarding bigger stronger wings that play the 4 than he is guarding the smaller quicker guys. He's an elite rebounder for his size.

Put it this way... of our non-stars he's the guy I could most see starting on a championship level team.
 

Joncolton

Well-Known Member
The two teams that met in the Finals had traditional bigs at the 5, I hope the Jazz keep Gobert, win championships with him and put up his statue in front of the arena.
 
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