The Honesty of Transgender Identity

[Archie Moses]

I should probably put this out there.

I grew up with parents who were divorced, and struggled with drugs and alcohol. I bounced from hom to home until about eighth grade.

My dad married a southerner, who helped him get over his alcoholism. My mom was a drug addict and my bros (gonna simplify a lot more **** here) moved in with my dad when he got married when I was in 7th grade.

My step mom was the strictest, meanest person you'll ever meet. I guarantee that. She had her nice moments, but holy **** was she a mean one.

She was a southerner and casually made racist comments to my brothers and I. I think she's a product of her upbringing in Mississippi and always butted heads with her.

I was taught, along with all of my siblings and classmates (in Utah) everyone is equal. I grew up to that too. The racist ****s were the vast minorities.

Granted, I'm from Utah, but I hope to give you a clue as to why I despise being anything you assume I am because I'm white. Gtfoh.

Lastly, I'm dyslexic af and too proud to admit it many times so it's hard to articulate myself.

 

[mongoose01]

Actually mental health and suicide are discussed as issues within the Trans community all the time. It's pretty widely believed (and is fairly common sense imo) that simply treating trans people better as a society is a good start in alleviating these problems.

Uh, it is no longer considered a mental disorder as of like 2 or 3 years ago. I agree that treating trans people better is a good start, but I also think it’s a much deeper issue than that.


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[Zombie]

Uh, it is no longer considered a mental disorder as of like 2 or 3 years ago. I agree that treating trans people better is a good start, but I also think it’s a much deeper issue than that.


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Nor should it be. There are plenty of transgender individuals who are perfectly happy and without any mental illness whatsoever.

 

[Archie Moses]

I do think it's literally impossible to be racist against white people in the US, because racism isn't just about not liking people based solely on their skin color, it's about exerting and maintaining power within society. When a white person tells a racist joke about a stereotype or whatever they are reinforcing their own supremacy. I think it's quite a stretch to say that Jeong was attempting to do the same. It seems clear to me at least that she is using the 'language' of racist jokes to mock the jokes themselves.

 

[Zombie]

I wonder how much you've lived outside of Utah in your life. I've been traveling close to bi-weekly for work since before I joined jazzfanz in 2007.

When I lived out of the country, I had a knife pulled on my because I was white and GB.

In Palo Alto in 2008, my car was vandalized and hit with rocks in East Palo Alto (you probably don't get why.)

I'm introverted af, but at times I become a target at bars I go to because I'm alone. I've never been confronted by white dudes, just putting it out thete. I can usually talk my way outta conflicts, so I don't feel unsafe, but I'm telling you my experience.

I write this while on a business trip in Phoenix too.

Well, I've actually never lived in Utah lol. And I'm not at all saying that whites aren't a marginalized group in some corners of the world, that's certainly not the case in this country though. The foundation of this country was built on white supremacy, and while much as changed we still maintain vestiges of that power. As for never being confronted by white people I'm not entirely clear what you are trying to say there, so I'm just going to leave that one alone.

 

[Archie Moses]

Well, I've actually never lived in Utah lol. And I'm not at all saying that whites aren't a marginalized group in some corners of the world, that's certainly not the case in this country though. The foundation of this country was built on white supremacy, and while much as changed we still maintain vestiges of that power. As for never being confronted by white people I'm not entirely clear what you are trying to say there, so I'm just going to leave that one alone.

I'm not saying we're marginalized.

I'm saying judging groups based off of skin color is wrong and counterproductive.

Edit: You missed my point. Skin color deaf, I guess.

 

[olden_undercover]

This thread is amazing. I mean that in the most positive way: It's cool this kind of conversation can happen with respect and total transparency.

My daughter's ex-boyfriend was a genetic female who identified as male. We'll call him Sam. Sam, as a young adolescent girl identifying as female, had gotten pregnant with her then-boyfriend. She had a miscarriage very early in the pregnancy and broke up with her boyfriend. About 6 months later, she began identifying as male, met my daughter, and within a few months they were dating. They were together for about 2 years, and their relationship ended in a normal way-- they just sort of outgrew each other. Within a year or so, my daughter was in a new relationship with a young man who was born male, identified as male. A couple of weeks ago, I ran into Sam's mother, who it turns out works in the same building I do. She told me Sam had recently begun identifying as female again, and has expressed how badly she wants to get pregnant and have children. We talked about how uncertain it felt as parents to watch them-- Sam and my daughter-- together. We discussed how much we had feared the difficulties we knew they would have faced, had they stayed together, and how strange it is to be in a place-- as their parents-- where we could never judge them or think badly of them for who they were, despite it all. We came to the conclusion any parent would: That we loved them before they had met, loved them when they were together, and loved them today, and all equally, and nothing could ever change that.

I have read through this thread a lot. There's so much perspective and shared wisdom here. Siro's honest questions about whether or not TG is a choice, and Bullet's comments about the unfortunate view of TG as an attempt to deceive, have made me think hard about what I have observed with my daughter and Sam. There was an unmistakable element of choice in the circumstances I've described above. It was a very specific set of circumstances, to be sure. But that gets to the heart of what I have been thinking as I read and re-read this thread...

We want so badly to identify ourselves and the world around us-- to put things in black and white, and state cause and effect in everything we see, and to categorize. Why no gray? Why no 'unknown, but that's fine for now'? At one point in this thread, there was talk of religious belief and atheism, but no talk of agnosticism. We state genetic facts, and compare them to a host of genders identified by some important people who did a lot of research, and rest assured that we are being objective; we assume that building our language and subsequent behaviors toward others around that will make things better and easier. But in that same ironic breath, all we're really doing is adding nuance to how we marginalize people stuck in a society that hasn't created a label for them that allows them to feel the most basic levels of acceptance and self-worth. I don't know the answers to a lot of questions, and that's because sometimes there isn't AN answer. Sometimes there might be an answer, but we are still too ignorant to know it, and we just need the humility to say so. That's not lazy-- it's honest, and we need to let people say, "I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to that very complex question for myself yet. Please forgive me." I don't like living in a world so desensitized to simple kindness that the public discourse has become laser-focused on shaming anybody unwilling to coalesce to ideas like preferred pronouns, going so far as to propose enforcing their use in some places by legislation. If a person asks me to call him "zim", I'll do it out of kindness and respect for that person. But if the next person tells him she is not comfortable with that, because she doesn't understand what that means, then it seems reasonable for them to have a conversation about it, and then maybe he'll come to accept that it's unfair of him to expect her-- just that one lady-- to call him "zim". Isn't that okay, too? Isn't she still okay?

Anyway, I don't have a good close to this ramble. Sorry if it was preachy; thanks for reading. I'd love to read thoughts about Sam and my daughter. I'm still not convinced I know anything about what happened there... which I'm totally fine with.

 

[mongoose01]

Nor should it be. There are plenty of transgender individuals who are perfectly happy and without any mental illness whatsoever.

Ok so let’s run around in circles. There are plenty of people who have many symptoms of OCD and are perfectly happy individuals without any other mental illness whatsoever. Because the rituals and obsessions do not cause them stress or anxiety it is not clinical OCD, yet OCD remains a mental health disorder.


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[gandalfe]

Ok so let’s run around in circles. There are plenty of people who have many symptoms of OCD and are perfectly happy individuals without any other mental illness whatsoever. Because the rituals and obsessions do not cause them stress or anxiety it is not clinical OCD, yet OCD remains a mental health disorder.


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So, what are you saying here?

 

[mongoose01]

So, what are you saying here?

I’m saying that I think transgenderism deserves to be classified as a mental health issue. I’m not sure the parameters, but at the very least people with added stress and anxiety related to their transgender thoughts/actions, should receive counseling/treatment.

I’m not sure what “treatment” means or looks like either. I’m skeptical that we should be pumping hormones into them and telling them to cultivate those thoughts/actions. I am also skeptical about putting into law things that make questioning those actions illegal.


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[mongoose01]

So, what are you saying here?

People who spend an hour a day acting out the OCD obsessions are also considered severe. If OCD interferes with their life in a negative way it is also clinical. By being transgender they are acting on their compulsions/obsessions. Many devote significant time and effort to look and act a certain way, many act on their obsession 24/7. I think in very very few cases does this not affect their lives negatively. Like I said I don’t know the perimeters, but I see problems with the current status and the way things are heading.


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[gandalfe]

I’m saying that I think transgenderism deserves to be classified as a mental health issue. I’m not sure the parameters, but at the very least people with added stress and anxiety related to their transgender thoughts/actions, should receive counseling/treatment.

I’m not sure what “treatment” means or looks like either. I’m skeptical that we should be pumping hormones into them and telling them to cultivate those thoughts/actions. I am also skeptical about putting into law things that make questioning those actions illegal.

Given that you're now arguing against the consensus of thousands of mental health professionals, what are your qualifications?