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The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

jom2003 said:
I wouldn't jump to such conclusion yet. Lot of people asked what if prime Shaq lived in today's five out/threes orientated moneyball era. Well then you get Jokic.

Joker sorta benefited from the fact that there isn't a single big man who can match him one on one in this era so everything he does in the low post sorta gets magnified cuz opponents have no answer but to double up or even load up their entire defense on him which leaves his teammates wide open for the easy dish.

Imagine having someone like Duncan/Olajuwon/Shaq/Robinson/Ewing who can match him one on one. Then teams can simply stick to their defensive scheme and watch the two battling it out in the paint. Someone might say Embiid but tbh he is soft like charmin and not comfortable staying in the paint at all. For a player of his size he settles for jumpers way too often and played smaller than he actually is. Same goes for other bigs like AD/Kat/Bam/Sabobis who simply aren't strong enough or even reshaped their bodies specifically for the sake of “mobility” to meet the demand of the so-called “stretch bigs”.

Not saying Joker isn't great because being a “shaq” in the modern day NBA is still a huge compliment. But it's definitely a stretch to call him the greatest offensive player purely based on stats without context.
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I think it's safe to say that jokic is the greatest offense player of all time though.

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fishonjazz said:
I think it's safe to say that jokic is the greatest offense player of all time though.

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Stats need to be put into context... Even that video acknowledged it. Joker benefited from living in a guard dominated era where big men are mostly utility players or even played like guards... There's not a big men who could challenge him both offensively or defensively. His stats got glorified cuz he's like a man amongst boys inside.
 
jom2003 said:
Stats need to be put into context... Even that video acknowledged it. Joker benefited from living in a guard dominated era where big men are mostly utility players or even played like guards... There's not a big men who could challenge him both offensively or defensively. His stats got glorified cuz he's like a man amongst boys inside.
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He can't go back in time and show us that he dominates Shaq and Hakeem though.
So I'm just going off real actual life rather than hypothetical fantasy.

Best offensive player of all time
 
For me the argument about where Jokic sits among the all-time greats has shades of the argument over whether Tiger Woods is greater than Jack Nicklaus.

Due to the number of major championships won, it can be hard to win an argument that Tiger is better. It's much easier to win an argument that Tiger had a higher peak.

That's sorta where I'm at with Jokic. I don't want to get in the fray of greatest (career span), but I'm pretty comfortable saying that Jokic's offensive peak is highest.

(His defense is underrated, too).
 
jom2003 said:
Stats need to be put into context... Even that video acknowledged it. Joker benefited from living in a guard dominated era where big men are mostly utility players or even played like guards... There's not a big men who could challenge him both offensively or defensively. His stats got glorified cuz he's like a man amongst boys inside.
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You can also counter that and say that in today's game he's presented with far more defensive challenges than centers in 80's/90's due to the larger variety in playstyle among centers.

Point blank period Jokic would be a nightmare for any player in the history of the NBA. He's strong, supremely skilled, and has as high as basketball IQ as anyone who has ever played.

And Embiid has existed during this entire Jokic stretch. Also Anthony Davis.
 
fishonjazz said:
He can't go back in time and show us that he dominates Shaq and Hakeem though.
So I'm just going off real actual life rather than hypothetical fantasy.

Best offensive player of all time
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Right. He will still go down as the greatest center of all time. Just not so sure about being the "greatest offensive player ever" part. Such a shame when they had Patrick Ewing missing the all NBA team entirely while averaging 25/11 cuz there were like four other centers putting up better numbers. Joker is all alone in his time.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
You can also counter that and say that in today's game he's presented with far more defensive challenges than centers in 80's/90's due to the larger variety in playstyle among centers.

Point blank period Jokic would be a nightmare for any player in the history of the NBA. He's strong, supremely skilled, and has as high as basketball IQ as anyone who has ever played.

And Embiid has existed during this entire Jokic stretch. Also Anthony Davis.
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That’s my whole point though. Jokic actually benefited from the current versatile play style cuz he has a more well rounded skillset conpared to other all time great big men like Shaq/Hakeem/Jabbar. But being more well rounded doesn't necessarily mean more talented. Like everyone knew Shaq was gonna dunk on their *** but they can't stop him no matter how many defenders they throw at him, which led to the infamous hack a shaq strategy. Is he not talented? Similarly MJ is not a great 3pt shooter so skillset wise he's not as well rounded as the likes of Kobe, Harden, KD, or even Ant but it won't matter when he's simply the best at doing what he does.

Plus who is to say that MJ/ Hakeem/Malone wouldn't be able develop a 3pt shot had they lived in the modern day NBA to suit the current playstyle.

Embiid and AD as i mentioned before are basically PFs posing as centers. The concept of “small ball fives” took away any meaningful competition from the center spot which left Joker all alone by himself.
 
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jom2003 said:
That’s my whole point though. Jokic actually benefited from the current versatile play style cuz he has a more well rounded skillset conpared to other all time great big men like Shaq/Hakeem/Jabbar. But being more well rounded doesn't necessarily mean more talented. Like everyone knew Shaq was gonna dunk on their *** but they can't stop him no matter how many defenders they throw at him, which led to the infamous hack a shaq strategy. Is he not talented? Similarly MJ is not a great 3pt shooter so skillset wise he's not as well rounded as the likes of Kobe, Harden, KD, or even Ant but it won't matter when he's simply the best at doing what he does.

Plus who is to say that MJ/ Hakeem/Malone wouldn't be able develop a 3pt shot had they lived in the modern day NBA to suit the current playstyle.

Embiid and AD as i mentioned before are basically PFs posing as centers. The concept of “small ball fives” took away any meaningful competition from the center spot which left Joker all alone by himself.
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Embiid is not a PF posing as a center. It's really hard to have an intelligent conversation when you're trying so hard to confirm whatever bias you have.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
For me the argument about where Jokic sits among the all-time greats has shades of the argument over whether Tiger Woods is greater than Jack Nicklaus.

Due to the number of major championships won, it can be hard to win an argument that Tiger is better. It's much easier to win an argument that Tiger had a higher peak.

That's sorta where I'm at with Jokic. I don't want to get in the fray of greatest (career span), but I'm pretty comfortable saying that Jokic's offensive peak is highest.

(His defense is underrated, too).
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Jack Nicklaus is clearly the better player over his career. The US Amateurs he won, in addition to the staggering amount of times he came 2nd and 3rd in majors is unmatched. Now if Tiger hadn't got caught up taking so much HGH and got so sidetracked banging 500 random hos he most likely would've passed him but ...

Agree for the most part tho
 
jom2003 said:
That’s my whole point though. Jokic actually benefited from the current versatile play style cuz he has a more well rounded skillset conpared to other all time great big men like Shaq/Hakeem/Jabbar. But being more well rounded doesn't necessarily mean more talented. Like everyone knew Shaq was gonna dunk on their *** but they can't stop him no matter how many defenders they throw at him, which led to the infamous hack a shaq strategy. Is he not talented? Similarly MJ is not a great 3pt shooter so skillset wise he's not as well rounded as the likes of Kobe, Harden, KD, or even Ant but it won't matter when he's simply the best at doing what he does.

Plus who is to say that MJ/ Hakeem/Malone wouldn't be able develop a 3pt shot had they lived in the modern day NBA to suit the current playstyle.

Embiid and AD as i mentioned before are basically PFs posing as centers. The concept of “small ball fives” took away any meaningful competition from the center spot which left Joker all alone by himself.
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wut ?? lol Embiid is as much of a 5 only as you can get
 
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