The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

[HermanG]

I said the numbers that parse out his individual metrics are down across the board. His EPM, BPM, LEBRON ect. All these metrics attempt to isolate the impact of a single player versus his teammates in various ways. On/Off court is team dependent, and I don't have a problem with it being team dependent but it isthe most team dependent number brought up in this discussion.

Lmao. On/off by name, definition and nature is meant to represent how the team performs while you are on vs off. It uses team performance indicators over individual ones as the point of it is to measure how the team performs with and without you.

You gotta wrap your head around this better. Individuals metrics are influenced by team and teammates more than on/off, which is more team performance agnostic.

E.g. it doesnt matter how ****** your team TO% is.... if that number is better when you are on the court it gives a positive indication.

Those numbers are not comparable between teams, but it is somewhat within a team. On/off is impacted by fixed rotations (especially fixed player pairings).

Its how Rudy can be 95th percentile while another starter in the same team can simultaneously be 15th percentile.

 

[KqWIN]

Lmao. On/off by name, definition and nature is meant to represent how the team performs while you are on vs off. It uses team performance indicators over individual ones as the point of it is to measure how the team performs with and without you.

You gotta wrap your head around this better. Individuals metrics are influenced by team and teammates more than on/off, which is more team performance agnostic.

E.g. it doesnt matter how ****** your team TO% is.... if that number is better when you are on the court it gives a positive indication.

Those numbers are not comparable between teams, but it is somewhat within a team. On/off is impacted by fixed rotations (especially fixed player pairings).

Its how Rudy can be 95th percentile while another starter in the same team can simultaneously be 15th percentile.

I understand the use of on/off. Point is, it is team dependent. Like I said, I've got no problem with it being team dependent. I'm saying you can't dismiss something for being team dependent and then use something that is also team dependent, which on/off is. Both on/off and strictly on court rating have a place in discussion despite the fact that they are team dependent. A player can have a higher on/off one year and still be worse than he in a year where his on/off was lower. And again, I've mentioned the stats the actually attempt to isolate a player's impact independent of teammates. Rudy's drop off is drastic in those metrics. So yeah, the on/off is really great for Rudy this year. But on the other hand, we have all these other things that point to some slippage.

We're talking in circles at this point, but I'll just leave it at this: I think Rudy played at a significantly higher level than this last year and in previous seasons. What made Rudy who he is was that no matter who he played with, he was going to produce elite defense when he was on the court and he was going to play enough total minutes that it would amount to an elite overall defense for your team. This is why I value on court rating alone. With Rudy, he was good enough that no matter who he was with you always got elite defense. If you don't think he was better before, I think you're underselling just how good he was, but we'll have to agree to disagree. He can always bounce back, and maybe he will as chemistry grows. I would feel like I'm disrespecting Rudy if I think his individual play has always been what we're seeing this year.

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

You cant seriously use a team stat to argue Rudys defensive drop when the counter argument is that their defensive drop is largely due to Randle, who also impacts that number (and who has the worst individual DRtg of any rotation guy there).

I mean Rui said that part of Lakers offensive gameplan on Week 1 was to exploit the fact that Randle just stands there on defense. He is a known commodity and It hurts them the most in transition as he doesnt run back. Transition is one area where their defense has gone significantly worse from last year.

I agree with you. For Rudy is not down, but his motivation may falling down at some part of the game. You give 100% when you see your teammates doing the same. When you play defense with a plot Randle, you definitely get tired and boring and cut some effort. I don't see any slow down from Rudy . Last night 20 Rebound ( 8 offensive) ...

 

[framer]

It’s still early but I immediately hated the KAT/Randle deal for the Timberwolves this season. It helps them longer-term cap wise but a travesty for this season which is amazing for us. How great would it be if they sucked this year when we own their pick after making the WCF last year when we didn’t.

I mean I think this was the whole point of sending them Conley. He was good short term but would then fall off a cliff forcing them to make some tough financial choices.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I mean I think this was the whole point of sending them Conley. He was good short term but would then fall off a cliff forcing them to make some tough financial choices.

They gave them Conley because it was the best deal for Utah they could get. Don't act like it was a galaxy brain play.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I think Fland might be my favorite non top 7 guy.

 

[framer]

They gave them Conley because it was the best deal for Utah they could get. Don't act like it was a galaxy brain play.

I mean maybe? I think the deal was kinda lopsided in Minnys direction. We put in more assets than we probably should have to make it happen. There were other avenues available to get the Lakers a DLo quality replacement. A lot of us here saw this as an eventuall outcome at the time.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I mean maybe? I think the deal was kinda lopsided in Minnys direction. We put in more assets than we probably should have to make it happen. There were other avenues available to get the Lakers a DLo quality replacement. A lot of us here saw this as an eventuall outcome at the time.

It's not a maybe. It's a fact.

 

[KqWIN]

Lamelo is incredible.

 

[KqWIN]

Missi looks just like Capela out there.

 

[HermanG]

I understand the use of on/off. Point is, it is team dependent. Like I said, I've got no problem with it being team dependent. I'm saying you can't dismiss something for being team dependent and then use something that is also team dependent, which on/off is. Both on/off and strictly on court rating have a place in discussion despite the fact that they are team dependent. A player can have a higher on/off one year and still be worse than he in a year where his on/off was lower. And again, I've mentioned the stats the actually attempt to isolate a player's impact independent of teammates. Rudy's drop off is drastic in those metrics. So yeah, the on/off is really great for Rudy this year. But on the other hand, we have all these other things that point to some slippage.

We're talking in circles at this point, but I'll just leave it at this: I think Rudy played at a significantly higher level than this last year and in previous seasons. What made Rudy who he is was that no matter who he played with, he was going to produce elite defense when he was on the court and he was going to play enough total minutes that it would amount to an elite overall defense for your team. This is why I value on court rating alone. With Rudy, he was good enough that no matter who he was with you always got elite defense. If you don't think he was better before, I think you're underselling just how good he was, but we'll have to agree to disagree. He can always bounce back, and maybe he will as chemistry grows. I would feel like I'm disrespecting Rudy if I think his individual play has always been what we're seeing this year.

Again.. its not team dependat, its rotation/player pair dependant. That may be semantics, but either way it does not make it a team stat like DRtg which you quoted. The rotation dependancy would matter if I was comparing Rudy to Nurkic or someone else, but I'm actually using it to highlight Rudy and Randle impact so its perfectly valid here. We can also add Naz Reid to complete the set, in which case you will notice that Goberts -12.3 points allowed pretty much matches with Naz Reid (+4.5) and Julius Randle (+8.0) combined. The +0.2 difference is mainly coming from the small ball lineups where they only run one of their 3 bigs.

If you take a deeper look at their defensive metrics you will see that Minnesota is allowing 5.9 more paint points per game this season which is MORE than their difference in points allowed per game compared to last year. However during Rudy minutes, that total has only increased by 0.6 (from 30.9 to 31.5), so during the 14.9 minutes Rudy is not on the court they are actually allowing 5.3 extra points in the paint each game. I would go as far as to say that even the slight increase in paint points during Rudy minutes could be affected by his one new specific teammate playing worse help defense and allowing more uncontested drives, cuts, rolls and transition advantages.

I also trust @FrenchJazzFa who watches all Minny games when he says Rudy looks good. Thats also what I have seen in the few games I've watched.

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

I agree with both of you at some part. It's pretty hard to compare individual performance when you played with a different group. Randle and NAZ are really bad in defense and awful when they play together. From what my eyes see, Rudy is at the same level he was last year but as i would say, at some moment of the games, i see him also frustrating and giving up on some actions just because he is tired covering lazy *** Randle.... which explain some of the data.
I truly believe unless Finch show leadership and take strong decisions like let Randle come from the bench ( but it won't happen as Finch is way too soft) that this team will implode before deadline. Finch forget that during KAT injuries last year, NAZ was a starter and the team play pretty well. Also playing only 8 players all the time when you got Joe, Garza, Minott on the bench as not smart. This team lost his identity right now and is closer than a lottery team than anything else. Good year for f... up! I think a good pick await us this year. If we ended bottom 3 and Minny miss the play-in which can definitely happen, we may accelerate the rebuild !