The Official "Ask A Mormon" Thread

[colton]

Is it possible that feeling was self-induced? Was it just that they had been thinking the matter over so much, and as a group, as was stated "with great struggle", and since they were unified they all felt that it was the right thing to do almost as a group hallucination, not to be offensive.

Group hallucinations could certainly be an explanation. Is it the most likely explanation? Not to me.

 

[♪alt13]

Group hallucinations could certainly be an explanation. Is it the most likely explanation? Not to me.

To me the most likely situation was a fear of losing the church's tax exempt status. Not trying to be rude but honestly that is what most non mormons think about the "God is cool with blacks now" revelation.

 

[colton]

Back to the CES document, does anyone care to comment on the locality of Joseph Smith and the similarity of Book of Mormon locations to local place names contemporary to Joseph Smith? I found that very compelling.

You're talking about pages 9 and 10?

First the map on page 9... I've seen many (5-10) internally consistent maps of the Book of Mormon. I haven't ever seen any that ended up looking like the Lake Erie/Lake Ontario region, and I don't think I've ever seen any in which places like Ramah, Morianton, Shurr, Jacobugath, and Onidah were labeled on the map. I'd have to check the Book of Mormon to see if enough information is given about their location such that they can be pinned down on an internally-consistent map. I suspect not. Since the document doesn't provide references for their locations, they haven't made checking their work easy. In fact, it seems very suspicious since much of that document is referenced. For what it's worth, none of those names appear in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on BoM geography, which does provide a few paragraphs on "reconstructing internal Book of Mormon geography." Anyway, their map seems like quite a stretch to me, like a critic found some place names similar to BoM places and drew a map to make it look like the BoM places were in similar spots. Also, if the Book of Mormon referred to places in roughly the same geography as actual places around New York/Pennsylvania, I'd think that the early converts/people being preached to WHO WERE ALL FROM THAT REGION would have noticed and mentioned it. And as far as I know, that was not done at all. Apparently people in that area--both pro and con--didn't see any place name similarities worth noting.

Second, the list on page 10. There are 20 names on the list. I note that many of them are obviously Biblical. It makes sense that some names in the Book of Mormon area would be taken from the Bible, since the BoM peoples came from the Biblical region. It also of course makes sense that many names in the U.S. would be taken from the Bible. Places in the U.S. and in the BoM both being named after Biblical places doesn't support their argument that the book is a fraud, so I'll discount those. Going down the list of 20 names, we have these Biblical names:

Antioch
Boaz
Jacob
Jerusalem
Jordan
Lehi
Noah
Ramah
Sodom
Shiloh

That leaves 10. And actually Oneida is used twice, so it leaves 9. Of those 9, I personally find 4 to be quite a stretch, namely: Antrim = Antum
Moraviantown = Morianton
Ripple Lake = Ripliancum
Sherbrooke = Shurr

That leaves these 5:
Hellam = Helam
Kishkiminetas = Kishkumen
Mantua = Manti
Oneida = Onidah
Rama = Ramah

Those certainly seem similar to me. But 5 names out of the ~100* non-Biblical place names mentioned in the BoM? That doesn't trouble me too much.


* My quick estimate from glancing over this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Book_of_Mormon_places

 

[b_line]

Offhand, Pres. Kimball said something much like that with regards to O.D. #2 (1978).
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/2?lang=eng

"...we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance. He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood..."

I found some more about the confirming revelation in a document written by Edward Kimball (Spencer's son) for BYU Studies, available for download here: https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=7885 (click the "free pdf" link on the right)

I am a practicing mormon, but I personally find it very disturbing to think that at one point in our church's history, it was viewed as an act of God to allow black people to have the priesthood. This was no more revelation than me telling my son to be nice to the neighbors cat. Not letting black people have the priesthood for all those years is one of the biggest black eyes (no pun intended) that has happened to the church. Simply shameful that a prophet of God like Brigham young and those who followed him could not stand up for what is right and just, and had to give in to the racist pressure of their time.

 

[One Brow]

Group hallucinations could certainly be an explanation. Is it the most likely explanation? Not to me.

I've seen similar phenomena in Catholic prayer groups and Presbyterian services. Do you think they are self-induced in other religions?

 

[LogGrad98]

I've seen similar phenomena in Catholic prayer groups and Presbyterian services. Do you think they are self-induced in other religions?

This was my point, and I have talked before on this forum about my sister-in-law who claims to have received unequivocal spiritual proof in almost these terms that the church is false. How is that reconciled?

 

[colton]

I am a practicing mormon, but I personally find it very disturbing to think that at one point in our church's history, it was viewed as an act of God to allow black people to have the priesthood. This was no more revelation than me telling my son to be nice to the neighbors cat. Not letting black people have the priesthood for all those years is one of the biggest black eyes (no pun intended) that has happened to the church. Simply shameful that a prophet of God like Brigham young and those who followed him could not stand up for what is right and just, and had to give in to the racist pressure of their time.

I hear you, and share many of your sentiments. However, I don't see why you find "God didn't want the priesthood exclusion on blacks" and "God gave a revelation ending the priesthood exclusion on blacks" to be mutually exclusive. I don't.

 

[colton]

I've seen similar phenomena in Catholic prayer groups and Presbyterian services. Do you think they are self-induced in other religions?

Sometimes, definitely. (Pentacostals come to mind.) But from the people I've talked to, I'd say most of the time religious experiences in other religions are just as valid as those experienced in my religion.

 

[colton]

This was my point, and I have talked before on this forum about my sister-in-law who claims to have received unequivocal spiritual proof in almost these terms that the church is false. How is that reconciled?

I'd say she's wrong. But she's responsible for acting on how she believes God is leading her in her life, just as I am responsible for acting on how I believe God is leading me in mind. If she's sincere about it, I'll let God be the judge.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

Too many people overthink this stuff. If you enjoy it and/or it makes you a better person to be mormon, catholic or whatever, then do it. If you are already a great person or you are better without religion, then go that route.

Feelings, arguing about which is right or true or whatever, all seems pretty much irrelevant to me. Do what makes you happy and if you care, that which makes the world a better place.

I'm an active mormon, but couldn't give two ****s if it's true or not. It makes me better, happy and I like what it does for my family. It's really that simple.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

 

[green]

seattle, your post is awesome. Thanks. I appreciate it and agree.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'd say she's wrong. But she's responsible for acting on how she believes God is leading her in her life, just as I am responsible for acting on how I believe God is leading me in mind. If she's sincere about it, I'll let God be the judge.

I agree with this. But it does make it awful hard to discuss the "spirit" when she describes the same experience as we do for a completely opposite answer.