The Player's "STAND"
- Thread starter Kingju1ce
- Start date
GVC
Well-Known Member
Joke?
GVC
Well-Known Member
There are any number of solutions, but it's clear that the players are going to have to make major concessions, at least in the short run, if there's going to be a 2011/12 NBA season. I, like you and everyone else here, hope they're able to sort this mess out.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
What does each bring to the table?
Owners bring the league and teams.
Players bring talent.
Which is easier to replace?
It isnt supposed to be "fair". Life isnt and it is wrong for others to try and 'make' one side play fair(or what self appointed moral judges deem fair).
Bring what you can to the table, try and work something out. If, in the end, you cant get your way, you either decide to do something else or give in.
The owners can get new players, can the players get another job?
Owners bring the league and teams.
Players bring talent.
Which is easier to replace?
It isnt supposed to be "fair". Life isnt and it is wrong for others to try and 'make' one side play fair(or what self appointed moral judges deem fair).
Bring what you can to the table, try and work something out. If, in the end, you cant get your way, you either decide to do something else or give in.
The owners can get new players, can the players get another job?
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
"Welcome to Arby's, my name is Carmelo can I take you order please?"
I apologize if this sounds harsh but it's absolutely a foolish question. The players have every right to fight. I don't care if the owners are going in the red. I wouldn't care if the players were asking for a million times more. They have a right to fight for more money, and the owners have a right to refuse. The players are not slaves.
If the players believe strongly enough that they deserve more that they are willing not to play, then let them. If the owners believe it's too much, and they will lose money, then they are better off with them not playing.
In the end you should NEVER be upset that the players are trying to fight for their paycheck, it's their right to.
If the players believe strongly enough that they deserve more that they are willing not to play, then let them. If the owners believe it's too much, and they will lose money, then they are better off with them not playing.
In the end you should NEVER be upset that the players are trying to fight for their paycheck, it's their right to.
Some players have huge families, and a lot of child support.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
Basically the owners want a situation where they cannot lose money. This is a business, why should the players take a huge pay cut to protect the owners from their own stupidity. A CBA like this is why the gap between the rich and poor is at an all time high in the US. Are some changes necessary? Of course? The salary cap needs to be scaled back about 10% to reflect the overall economy. The luxury tax needs to have two levels, with a rate increasing to a ridiculous 300% around 75 million to severely discourage teams like Dallas and LA. Revenue sharing should be more equal between the sides. If the owners get too cute players will simply go overseas, basketball is a world game now.
I hate to say it, but toccoto is spot-on. While I can't stand the NBA and its players, you can't fault them for trying to make money. Imagine someone coming on a message board saying that YOU were being a baby and making too much money, and that YOU should share it, etc. Now let's say that you're the best man in the world to do your job. Sounds silly, right?
The best thing for us to do is stop watching/listening to ESPN, stop buying NIKE (greatest decision I've ever made, thank you very much) and/or boycott the NBA as a whole. I'm fairly put-off by the NBA right now, but even I don't want to just give it up.
Kingju1ce
Member
Everyone has the right to do what they want...but from where I sit, the player's side of this argument needs to adjust the most. The owners screwed up to get us here...as they were slitting each other's throats under the current CBA to try and be successful. Businessmen who feel they can't make money in Utah at this when trying to be competitive will turn their backs on our franchise and it will leave....that is my biggest fear.
So as a Utah Jazz fan, my opinion is that the NBA and the players need to figure out a way for MY team to have a fair chance of success with a hard cap or something similiar.
I care enough that I don't want a year or more without Jazz basketball...
So as a Utah Jazz fan, my opinion is that the NBA and the players need to figure out a way for MY team to have a fair chance of success with a hard cap or something similiar.
I care enough that I don't want a year or more without Jazz basketball...
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
I understand the argument, and I'm sympathetic to it.
On the other hand, no one put a gun to the owners' heads and forced them to hand out these God-awful inflated-guaranteed contracts. The players, of course, will be happy to take the money, they'd be fools not to. So the owners keep one-upping each other, and the system gets out of hand. The owners got themselves into this mess, and now they want to take it out of the hide of the players.
NBA players have unique talents, the best in the world, as a matter of fact. Why do we begrudge them their money, while we gladly shell out the bucks for Lady Gaga, U2, Julia Roberts, George Clooney, etc. who all make far more than NBA players? We pay them obscene amounts because we think they have unique talents. Why should it be different for athletes?
Owners are richer than players, some are billionaires. The NBA rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars from TV, merchandise, ticket sales etc. Why shouldn't the players, who have the unique talents, who we all pay to see, get the disproportionate share? None of us go to Jazz games to watch Greg Miller sit on the sidelines. Most owners also have other sources of revenue, they will not go broke if their NBA team does. They will continue to make millions, most of them at least.
While teams may not be turning profits, team values keep on rising. Most owners today could probably turn around and sell the team for substantially more than what they paid for it. While income may not be positive, they are earning unrealized capital gains. Also, we don't know what their cash flow is. They may be losing money, but be generating positive cash flow. Does anyone know what the true situation is?
Most owners have earned millions for a long time and will continue to do so. Most NBA players, on the other hand, have a narrow window in which to earn millions.
Etc.
I actually side more with the players than the owners. Somebody's gotta get all that money. I think the millionaires with the unique talents deserve more of it than the billionaires (or the multi, multi millionaires) who have unique talents in other areas, which is why they're billionaires (or the multi, multi millionaires).
Personally, if I were made NBA absolute ruler, the first thing I'd do is get rid of guaranteed contracts. Here's one area where I think the players benefit unduly. In essence, the owners assume all the risk, and I think this does create quite perverse incentives that significantly hurt the game. I'd also institute a hard salary cap. I know this sounds contradictory to what I just said, but I'd do this more for the reason of trying to create greater parity than for anything else. I'm tired of the NBA system in which the big market teams always have the advantage in attracting top talent. I'd like to see more teams with a legit shot to contend. Oh, and I'd pass a rule that the Lakers can't ever sign another top free agent or draft in the first round anymore. I'd do that because I hate, hate, hate, the f'n Lakers.
On the other hand, no one put a gun to the owners' heads and forced them to hand out these God-awful inflated-guaranteed contracts. The players, of course, will be happy to take the money, they'd be fools not to. So the owners keep one-upping each other, and the system gets out of hand. The owners got themselves into this mess, and now they want to take it out of the hide of the players.
NBA players have unique talents, the best in the world, as a matter of fact. Why do we begrudge them their money, while we gladly shell out the bucks for Lady Gaga, U2, Julia Roberts, George Clooney, etc. who all make far more than NBA players? We pay them obscene amounts because we think they have unique talents. Why should it be different for athletes?
Owners are richer than players, some are billionaires. The NBA rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars from TV, merchandise, ticket sales etc. Why shouldn't the players, who have the unique talents, who we all pay to see, get the disproportionate share? None of us go to Jazz games to watch Greg Miller sit on the sidelines. Most owners also have other sources of revenue, they will not go broke if their NBA team does. They will continue to make millions, most of them at least.
While teams may not be turning profits, team values keep on rising. Most owners today could probably turn around and sell the team for substantially more than what they paid for it. While income may not be positive, they are earning unrealized capital gains. Also, we don't know what their cash flow is. They may be losing money, but be generating positive cash flow. Does anyone know what the true situation is?
Most owners have earned millions for a long time and will continue to do so. Most NBA players, on the other hand, have a narrow window in which to earn millions.
Etc.
I actually side more with the players than the owners. Somebody's gotta get all that money. I think the millionaires with the unique talents deserve more of it than the billionaires (or the multi, multi millionaires) who have unique talents in other areas, which is why they're billionaires (or the multi, multi millionaires).
Personally, if I were made NBA absolute ruler, the first thing I'd do is get rid of guaranteed contracts. Here's one area where I think the players benefit unduly. In essence, the owners assume all the risk, and I think this does create quite perverse incentives that significantly hurt the game. I'd also institute a hard salary cap. I know this sounds contradictory to what I just said, but I'd do this more for the reason of trying to create greater parity than for anything else. I'm tired of the NBA system in which the big market teams always have the advantage in attracting top talent. I'd like to see more teams with a legit shot to contend. Oh, and I'd pass a rule that the Lakers can't ever sign another top free agent or draft in the first round anymore. I'd do that because I hate, hate, hate, the f'n Lakers.
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
....I'm in your corner all the way, pal! However, the longshoreman's Union is one of the most corrupt in the history of Unions! That being said, I hope the owners break the NBA union and get the players salaries back down to say, oh, 1,000 bucks a game as opposed to 150,000 bucks per game!
JimLes
Well-Known Member
The problem with the players is that they have traditionally done an atrocious job getting the fans on their side. I sometimes wonder if Maverick Carter runs PR for every guy in the NBA.
You just cannot rub your wealth in people's faces the way some NBA players do and expect fans to be on your side in a dispute over money. Especially, as many pointed out, at a time when many average people are feeling the effects of the recession. Everything from posing for pictures with the black AmEx to shirts that read "Check my $tats" to appearing on TV showing off your house, your ride, or whatever else. It's just bad PR. Now, the owners have the advantage of being largely anonymous. Sure, there are a few outspoken ones everyone know like Cuban, but who the hell know who owns the Spurs? Or the Magic? Or even the Celtics?
Fair or not, players are in the public eye while the owners are not. It's up to players to get the fans on their side, and they do not seem to be doing a very good job. You just can't go on MTV Cribs, show off your ridiculous mansion, then expect me to feel bad that you might lose that mansion. Not when I live in a 2-bedroom apartment. You should've thought ahead before you did it. Is this fair? No, but arguing with popular opinion will never lead to anything good. The hate LeBron is facing right now might be unfair, but it is what it is. Those are the rules and you have to play by them. People hating you for leaving Cleveland might be irrational, but they feel that way and you got to deal with it.
I just don't understand what the players believe their moral ground here is, and how they intend to explain it as such to fans.
You just cannot rub your wealth in people's faces the way some NBA players do and expect fans to be on your side in a dispute over money. Especially, as many pointed out, at a time when many average people are feeling the effects of the recession. Everything from posing for pictures with the black AmEx to shirts that read "Check my $tats" to appearing on TV showing off your house, your ride, or whatever else. It's just bad PR. Now, the owners have the advantage of being largely anonymous. Sure, there are a few outspoken ones everyone know like Cuban, but who the hell know who owns the Spurs? Or the Magic? Or even the Celtics?
Fair or not, players are in the public eye while the owners are not. It's up to players to get the fans on their side, and they do not seem to be doing a very good job. You just can't go on MTV Cribs, show off your ridiculous mansion, then expect me to feel bad that you might lose that mansion. Not when I live in a 2-bedroom apartment. You should've thought ahead before you did it. Is this fair? No, but arguing with popular opinion will never lead to anything good. The hate LeBron is facing right now might be unfair, but it is what it is. Those are the rules and you have to play by them. People hating you for leaving Cleveland might be irrational, but they feel that way and you got to deal with it.
I just don't understand what the players believe their moral ground here is, and how they intend to explain it as such to fans.
It is hard to have any sympathy for the players when you hear a multi-millionaire player talk about not being willing to take any pay cut at all because they need to take care of their family. So if you you made, oh $6 million per year instead of $10 million your family would be so severely impoverished? Or it might mean you wouldn't be able to retire at 30, instead you would have to work all the way to 33 or, god forbid, 35? Or maybe even actually work after you "retire" at the ripe old age of 35? Puh-leeze.
I took care of my family during a full year of unemployment after a layoff on our savings and unemployment benefits and by doing consulting and other odd jobs. I even worked for the Census. I did what I had to to make ends meet. Now we have no savings, but I am back to work, so things are looking good. It was tough, but you know what? The world didn't come to an end. It is going to be a lot harder for me to retire at 55 or 60 now, as I had planned, since to get employed I took a step back in my career and a solid drop in pay (over 20%), and I burned up our savings and part of our retirement taking care of my family. But I am grateful to be employed and I know that things are going to get better. And I sure as hell am not making a million dollars per year.
It also does not help their case when players declare bankruptcy. Let's see, you made $100 million during your career, but you blew $110 million being a jackass and I am supposed to feel sorry for you now? If they are not going to exercise the tiniest bit of foresight in their finances, that is their problem. I bought a Prius instead of the Audi I wanted. We didn't add that 4th car when the kids started to drive. We put money away, planned for the future. It helped us weather the storm when I lost my job. If a player making millions is too stupid to do something similar and ends up blowing everything he made in 10 years, then he deserves what he gets.
So I have very little sympathy for the players. Cry to someone else about cutting your multi-million dollar salary by 10%. Or lay some of them off, that would be fun to see.
The owners side is much more straight-forward. I recognized the signs and sold my amazon.com stock before it took it's tumble in the early 2000's. I made some decent money off of it and got rid of it before it became a losing venture (at least from the point I bought in, and the shares I was given as an employee, my strike-price was higher than their stock has rebounded to yet). The owners, if pushed, have the exact same choice to make. Keep plugging along losing money on this particular investment or divest it and get out of the business. With the economy still in the crapper, I would wager more than a few owners are willing to let the league die, as they have to choose among investments that are making much less than they did 10 years ago. Better to slough off the bad investments, weather the storm, rebuilding their portfolio with investments that are more stable and stand to gain when the economy turns around again. If the players cannot see that eventuality and stick doggedly to their demands to get bigger pieces of an imaginary pie, then that is where it will all go, and bye bye NBA.
But with some of the players in the league right now, I don't know how badly it would be missed. There are very few lovable characters anymore. Ego has taken over everything. Bird, Magic, Jordan, even Malone in his weird way were all likeable. They made the show fun, because you could give a hoot about the players and like them beyond the court. I don't see a lot of that now. Deron is a prime example. Bitter, angry, negative. He was fun to watch on the court until things didn't go his way and his ugly side came out. It used to be a game, now it's just business and taking advantage of the rules to get an unfair advantage (flopping, endless bitching, etc.) and trying to build super-teams so you don't have to play the game as a team anymore and can just rake in the championships (LeBron and gang). It is taking the fun out of it. Maybe the league needs a reset.
I took care of my family during a full year of unemployment after a layoff on our savings and unemployment benefits and by doing consulting and other odd jobs. I even worked for the Census. I did what I had to to make ends meet. Now we have no savings, but I am back to work, so things are looking good. It was tough, but you know what? The world didn't come to an end. It is going to be a lot harder for me to retire at 55 or 60 now, as I had planned, since to get employed I took a step back in my career and a solid drop in pay (over 20%), and I burned up our savings and part of our retirement taking care of my family. But I am grateful to be employed and I know that things are going to get better. And I sure as hell am not making a million dollars per year.
It also does not help their case when players declare bankruptcy. Let's see, you made $100 million during your career, but you blew $110 million being a jackass and I am supposed to feel sorry for you now? If they are not going to exercise the tiniest bit of foresight in their finances, that is their problem. I bought a Prius instead of the Audi I wanted. We didn't add that 4th car when the kids started to drive. We put money away, planned for the future. It helped us weather the storm when I lost my job. If a player making millions is too stupid to do something similar and ends up blowing everything he made in 10 years, then he deserves what he gets.
So I have very little sympathy for the players. Cry to someone else about cutting your multi-million dollar salary by 10%. Or lay some of them off, that would be fun to see.
The owners side is much more straight-forward. I recognized the signs and sold my amazon.com stock before it took it's tumble in the early 2000's. I made some decent money off of it and got rid of it before it became a losing venture (at least from the point I bought in, and the shares I was given as an employee, my strike-price was higher than their stock has rebounded to yet). The owners, if pushed, have the exact same choice to make. Keep plugging along losing money on this particular investment or divest it and get out of the business. With the economy still in the crapper, I would wager more than a few owners are willing to let the league die, as they have to choose among investments that are making much less than they did 10 years ago. Better to slough off the bad investments, weather the storm, rebuilding their portfolio with investments that are more stable and stand to gain when the economy turns around again. If the players cannot see that eventuality and stick doggedly to their demands to get bigger pieces of an imaginary pie, then that is where it will all go, and bye bye NBA.
But with some of the players in the league right now, I don't know how badly it would be missed. There are very few lovable characters anymore. Ego has taken over everything. Bird, Magic, Jordan, even Malone in his weird way were all likeable. They made the show fun, because you could give a hoot about the players and like them beyond the court. I don't see a lot of that now. Deron is a prime example. Bitter, angry, negative. He was fun to watch on the court until things didn't go his way and his ugly side came out. It used to be a game, now it's just business and taking advantage of the rules to get an unfair advantage (flopping, endless bitching, etc.) and trying to build super-teams so you don't have to play the game as a team anymore and can just rake in the championships (LeBron and gang). It is taking the fun out of it. Maybe the league needs a reset.
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
....it's true, the owners are trying to protect themselves....from THEMSELVES! However, I cannot sympathize with players who play so pathetically on a regular basis and STILL get hugh paychecks per game for doing so! I do not shell out big bucks to watch any of these clowns....nor do I spend my money to watch movie stars or other entertainers do what they do! They, of course, are as overpaid as any NBA player or other professional athlete. I rarely, if ever, go to the theater....and when I do I grab a early afternoon show...and bring in my own popcorn and soda and candy!
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
You may not shell out money for these other clowns, but plenty of other people do. And if they do, it is because they believe that these clowns possess unique talents that they are willing to pay for. Don't generalize from your own cheap-skate self to the general population. Mass behavior clearly demonstrates that people are willing to reward talent with large amounts of money. Again, if this is the case, why should athletes be any different?
I understand the frustration that players getting paid big bucks sometimes or often mail it in. A prime reason I favor getting rid of guaranteed contracts.
In response to another poster who railed on players shoving their money in our faces, just how do they do that? By living well? What the hell do you expect them to do? Buy a Corolla and shop at TJ Max? The wealthy conspicuously spend, and they've done it since almost the dawn of time. How many of you, if you made incredible amounts of money, would not buy nice cars, clothes, houses, etc? Why rail on rich, young black men for conspicuous consumption, when rich old white men have been spending conspicuously for a hell of a lot longer?
I understand that the situation in the NBA is out of whack and does need to be adjusted. What I don't get is the anger toward the players who are not doing anything differently than 95% of us would do if we were in the same place. Frankly, I think a lot, though surely not all, of this anger it is motivated by rank jealousy.
makes me think of something I just heard this morning: Science majors ask how to define the problem, Engineering majors ask how they can solve the problem, English majors ask if you want fries with your order...
anyhow, there's plenty of other basketball around - - high school, college etc - - it's just not played at as high a level as the NBA. But then again many of you (in addition to the chief whiner, carolinajazz) complain about the show-boating and chucking, lack of defense, one on one style of play in the NBA - - maybe you'd even be happier and more entertained!
and cj, you'd see far fewer tattoos at the high school level as well!
I think we all need to sit back and relax and watch a few episodes of Basketball Wives.
Then instead of trying to feel sorry for either the players or the owners, we can just feel sorry for ourselves for the time we wasted.
Then instead of trying to feel sorry for either the players or the owners, we can just feel sorry for ourselves for the time we wasted.