Through Jesus, I am defined by being God's child.

[franklin]

In this I find my greatest objection to faith. To me, at it's foundation faith is an act of denying and avoiding reality. You must first accept the fact that reality is not really real by accepting a supernatural and intelligent role in creating reality. That essentially means that the same supernatural entity (God) can change reality at any moment. That it is impossible to really know anything, because after all, you cannot know the mind of God. You must also accept that your perception, your ability to think and reason based on actual reality, is flawed. You have to already accept that God can be real before you can find out that He is real. Then, the way in which you find out that God is real is just that you know, or have a feeling in your bosom, or some other self-reassuring sensation that allows you not to actually know, but to feel good about your effort to actively deceive yourself and evade reality.

So in essence faith is the rejection of one's own mind. Rejection that the way in which we, as intelligent beings, interact with the world should be the result of thinking and reasoning. Rejection of our individual responsibility to understand this world as it is, rather than the way we wish, hope or desire that it is.

Anyone can convince them self of any fantasy they desire if they try hard enough and actively evade the facts that contradict their fantasy.

That's my take, anyway.

Great point. I have the answer, well at least what I think the answer will be. "Because my beliefs are correct". How do you know? "Because God told me". And round and round we go!

This is where humanity is failing. Instead of believing in the human spirit, we have put all of our trust in the culture we were a part of. In essence, we are all products of our culture and if that culture is to worship a giant monkey, well then, you're all going to hell because that giant monkey is God and he told us that our sacrifices of bananas was a true practice.

The issue I have with this philosophical approach is I don't see how it would not all boil down to situational ethics that can and should change with the tide. This is how the world operated up until the Great American Experiment. I prefer at least a minimal standard as opposed to "understand this world as it is, rather than the way we wish, hope or desire that it is." The latter can be a messy road when society accepts the way things are. Thoughts?

Why not appeal to the greatest tool we have for life, our minds? Why make us reject what we know and accept something that we don't and cannot know?

What proof would you consider a sign of God? Gravity has been enough for me (although I'd appreciate reading the atheist perspective). The simple fact that the big bang led to the perfect rate of expansion, something like a one in a trillion chance, is pretty damn phenomenal. How does that happen without control? And what exactly is gravity anyway? God's glue is just as descriptive as any scientific pondering.

 

[unluckyseventeen]

No. He's nowhere near my favorite character. Also, I feel fairly sure he wasn't fictional. I'll just tell you this in all sincerity. If Jesus is real, I hope I figure it out. I wouldn't want to miss out on the magic of a life filled with the light of Jesus. It would be nice if Jesus were real. Jesus is a nice story. I just don't think he is.

Holy Moses, I see 8 more pages between this response and initial post, but I will say that I believe Jesus was a real guy, too. He was probably a super nice guy, but son of god? Probably not. Like pretty much every story in the bible, it's basically a fish story that got exaggerated several times until somebody wrote it down, then people took it literally. Good fundamentals, but no can dunk.

 

[porqsmith]

My response is to keep trying until you get an answer. I was seeking an answer to something for 2 years. I continued to ask, and continued to have faith, and the answer was more amazing than I was hoping for. Do not give up, it wouldn't be a test if it was easy.

But if I was to keep trying, and eventually get an answer, how would I know that the answer was correct? By your own admission, there are various scenarios where the answer I received would not be God's answer.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think this is an apt method of finding answers. Laying aside all the problems inherent in the requirement that you have to have faith before you can elicit a response, there is no guarantee that the answer itself would be correct.

 

[NUMBERICA]

After paying for your own sins you will still get into one of the lower kingdoms of Heaven, because God loves you so much.

I honestly do not know how a person can read that and think that 'god' is anything but an *******. How benevolent of him to place a veil over our time with him, and then punish us and banish us for carrying on with that veil.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

But if I was to keep trying, and eventually get an answer, how would I know that the answer was correct? By your own admission, there are various scenarios where the answer I received would not be God's answer.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think this is an apt method of finding answers. Laying aside all the problems inherent in the requirement that you have to have faith before you can elicit a response, there is no guarantee that the answer itself would be correct.

You may not believe me, but I am saying that if you in full honesty want an answer to if God is real, you need to put some effort into it. Read the Bible or something, think about all the good things that (and assume there is a God) God had done for mankind according to the Bible from the creation of Adam to today. In all sincerity pray in the name of Jesus Christ if God is real with all the feeling you have in you. Think of how a loving parent would answer a child's question. The answer will come in a positive way, and you will probably feel really good inside. Put aside doubt, and all the other questions you have and just give it a try. Trust me, when you get a real answer from God, you will know it and probably not forget it. Satan cannot deceive you if you pray to God and ask him a question in the name of Christ. He can't interfere with that. He may try to stop you from trying, or even praying..... but once you get the words out of your mouth you will know the difference.

Stop thinking. Doubt is not our friend.

 

[JJ Rage]

Minor NSFW lanuage in this video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

 

[m3at]

I am not saying that.
I am saying it is possible, there could be many reasons.
I don't know I would be guessing especially with your general question. Each case is different.
I do know God answers me when I ask questions. Is it always how I wanted it, or when I wanted it.... no... but I get my answer.
I do know that God has promised to answer every honest seeker of the truth.

Again, this is your belief. What someone else half way across the world believes, and trust me, they believe it more than you do, enough to fly some planes into buildings.

 

[jazzrule]

I honestly do not know how a person can read that and think that 'god' is anything but an *******. How benevolent of him to place a veil over our time with him, and then punish us and banish us for carrying on with that veil.

It would not be much of a test for us to chose right if we could remember living with God and all that we learned there would it. He does not banish us we banish ourselves from returning to live in His presence, if we do not desire to find our way back. And yes God is benevolent because he provides us a place in heaven even if we chose to use our free agency unwisely.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

This thing won't let me edit.

Jazzspaz - my last post continued my assumption that you thought God's inconsistent answers were the work of Satan.

You clarify by saying that is only one possibility. I think that's a cop out. If you claim to believe that God answers consistently, then you need a good explanation for why so many people get so many varied answers from God.

As to the edit, after you go to edit, go to advanced and it will work.

As to a good explaination, there are probably as many explainations as there are scenarios when it happens, that is why I dont answer.
Give me a scenario and I can try my best, but I would still be guessing.
Here are a few reasons, people really are not listening, people are dishonest when they say they have an answer for various reasons, people listen to Satan's false answer (which can happen in my opinion when they do not ask in the name of Christ), people are not sincere in a desire to do what needs to be done when they get that answer. Questions and answers are an individual thing, and I make no claim to know the why's of everything.

I make the claim that I know what has been promised to work, not to know everything about what or why something does not work.

 

[m3at]

It would not be much of a test for us to chose right if we could remember living with God and all that we learned there would it. He does not banish us we banish ourselves from returning to live in His presence, if we do not desire to find our way back. And yes God is benevolent because he provides us a place in heaven even if we chose to use our free agency unwisely.

as a father of 3 children I can't think of any scenario where I would put my children through what it is that God expects out of us and yet, I still go to church. Go figure.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Stop thinking. Doubt is not our friend.

That about sums up the argument.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Again, this is your belief. What someone else half way across the world believes, and trust me, they believe it more than you do, enough to fly some planes into buildings.

I think we should stop worrying about what other people believe, and focus on what "I" believe.
If you ask God what to believe, and he answers you, isn't that all that matters for you?
Yes these other people with different beliefs scare you, but don't let that affect what you believe.
If you truly got an answer from God, why would you listen to other people?
Why even be afraid of other people?
Do I believe God told those people to fly their plane into a building? No
If a leader in my church told me to do something would I blindly do it... no.
I would ask God if what that leader told me to do is something I should do.... if my answer was yes... then I would do that thing.

Always turn to God in everything. This is why prayer is so important.

Yes it is my belief.