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Toronto dad denied watching his daughter's swimming lessons in public pool...

MVP

MVP

Well-Known Member
https://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/...hes-not-allowed-to-watch-daughters-swim-class

It is coming. Mark my words it will be Islamic republic of Canada in 50 years or so. We have muslim mayor in Calgary, women only days at hair salons and now this? I will seriously consider moving and retiring in Australia one day, at least their prime minister has spine when it comes to "cultural rights of immigrants". ( and I am immigrant myself).

Quote: ‘IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.

“I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. ‘This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom’ We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!’

‘Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. ‘We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.’

‘This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, ‘THE RIGHT TO LEAVE‘.’

‘If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn’t force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.’
 
Your point about inferior Islamic principles polluting parts of the West is correct. But that island of truth is difficult to spot in such a massive ocean of irrational bigotry and hatred.
 
SiroMar said:
Your point about inferior Islamic principles polluting parts of the West is correct. But that island of truth is difficult to spot in such a massive ocean of irrational bigotry and hatred.
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As an immigrant to Canada I accepted it's rules and laws and do no cry and complain that they do not accomodate my cultural rights. If I move to a different country I wil obey it's laws and rules, the same way and be thankful for opportunity to live and work here. If I want women only swim classes I would still be living in country which allows that. It is just fundamentaly not right for small group of people who came to country looking for the better life/opportunities to demand to accomodate their way of life and cause problems for local people. Sorry it should not be happening. You move to other country, you ready to make sacrifices - if it means not able to practice some cultural/religious rituals/principles, let it be, it is your choice at the end of the day, nobody is forcing you to come here. Small price to pay at the end of the day in exchange for better life.
 
AKMVP said:
As an immigrant to Canada I accepted it's rules and laws and do no cry and complain that they do not accomodate my cultural rights. If I move to a different country I wil obey it's laws and rules, the same way and be thankful for opportunity to live and work here. If I want women only swim classes I would still be living in country which allows that. It is just fundamentaly not right for small group of people who came to country looking for the better life/opportunities to demand to accomodate their way of life and cause problems for local people. Sorry it should not be happening. You move to other country, you ready to make sacrifices - if it means not able to practice some cultural/religious rituals/principles, let it be, it is your choice at the end of the day, nobody is forcing you to come here. Small price to pay at the end of the day in exchange for better life.
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You must be mixing up Canada with Nazi Germany. The cultural impositions you describe are not part of the Western heritage. The West transcended through its embrace of the free market of ideas, and prospered by encouraging their expression. All illogical religiosity, be it Muslim, Christian, nationalist, communist, or anything else that serves to limit the exploration and exchange of knowledge and understanding is a threat to the future of the West, and by extension, all of humanity.

In other words, Canada does not benefit from your blind obedience of their cultural norms. I criticize the encroachment of Islam not because "ALL MUST OBEY TRADITION!", but because those ideals are objectively damaging to society and the individuals that make it up. Deep in your heart (brain), that's your complaint too. You object to the story because it is backward and divisive. But you let your emotions turn an objective assessment into a nationalist rant against multiculturalism. And you shouldn't limit yourself in such a way.

That's my opinion.
 
So to be clear - I am not against people practicing their cultural/religious rituals while in other country. I am against them using particular country's resources ( like in above example public pool) to do that or demanding to change local rules/laws to accommodate their beliefs/traditions. If some rich muslim entrepreneur/immigrant builds muslim only private pool in the center of Toronto - fine I have no problems with that. But to force your beliefs/rules on public pool? sorry should not be happening.
What if my religion tells me to swim naked only? Would Canada let me do that in public pool? No - I would be charged for exposure. Yet it allows women of certain religions to take a dip in public pool with dresses or clothes fully covering their bodies.( kudos to France for banning it from their public pools!)
 
AKMVP said:
So to be clear - I am not against people practicing their cultural/religious rituals while in other country. I am against them using particular country's resources ( like in above example public pool) to do that or demanding to change local rules/laws to accommodate their beliefs/traditions. If some rich muslim entrepreneur/immigrant builds muslim only private pool in the center of Toronto - fine I have no problems with that. But to force your beliefs/rules on public pool? sorry should not be happening.
What if my religion tells me to swim naked only? Would Canada let me do that in public pool? No - I would be charged for exposure. Yet it allows women of certain religions to take a dip in public pool with dresses or clothes fully covering their bodies.( kudos to France for banning it from their public pools!)
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Swimming fully clothed should be tolerated as long as it does not present a public health risk. The problem is when a group of individuals try to impose their "beliefs" on those who don't share them. I have relatives in Sweden who tried to sue their apartment complex because, in their small minds, men and women swimming together violates their religious liberty as Muslims. They were laughed out of the court, thankfully. But that's the kind of **** that we must stand up against. Irrational impositions that seem justified only to those who possess irrational belief in them.

The disagreement I'm having with you is over the reason you object to Muslim norms. You seem to think it's wrong because it does not fit with the cultural status quo. And that's not it. They're wrong because they're harmful and inferior in utility to what we currently have. That means not only are they wrong for Canada, but they're wrong for everyone. They're simply wrong.
 
SiroMar said:
They're wrong because they're harmful and inferior in utility to what we currently have. That means not only are they wrong for Canada, but they're wrong for everyone. They're simply wrong.
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Well I am totally ok if they wrong while doing it in their own country. Their playground - their rules. Who am I to tell them what to do in Saudi Arabia?
 
AKMVP said:
Well I am totally ok if they wrong while doing it in their own country. Their playground - their rules. Who am I to tell them what to do in Saudi Arabia?
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You're an intelligent entity capable of evaluating information and making reasonable judgments. If you can't tell them they're wrong, then you can't tell them what to do ANYWHERE. Why would you try and limit something that you don't consider wrong? Why is it being outside of this or that cultural of any relevance? Obviously I understand what you're saying. Your reach only extends so far, so you might as well keep the battles to familiar arenas. But the understanding that Saudi Arabia's behavior is OBJECTIVELY wrong is quite important. Even if you can't change it. Then you'll be justified in your attempt to change it where you can.
 
AKMVP said:
Well I am totally ok if they wrong while doing it in their own country. Their playground - their rules. Who am I to tell them what to do in Saudi Arabia?
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There are many people in those countries who do not comply with these mandates by choice. Force is used against them to make them comply.

I'm taking an anthropology class right now and I can't stand when the use of force against individuals to engage in cultural practices that are neither beneficial to them nor desired by them is glossed over as just a beautiful part of the tapestry of human society. The professor even going so far as to say the caste system in India, while from a western ethnocentric perspective is horrible, provides everyone with a place and purpose in society. The fact that this is not a voluntary nor even a merit based system is completely ignored. Slaves benefitted form being forced into their place and purpose in society by that standard, I suppose.
 
AKMVP said:
https://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/...hes-not-allowed-to-watch-daughters-swim-class
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Interesting. I don't have a problem with them offering such a class if there's a demand for it from the Islamic community. But the families should absolutely have been told that fathers would not be able to watch the lessons. And more to the point, the dad in the case should absolutely be able to get his money back. Personally there's no way in heck that I would have let my girls have swimming lessons without being able to watch (assuming my wife couldn't be there).
 
colton said:
Interesting. I don't have a problem with them offering such a class if there's a demand for it from the Islamic community. But the families should absolutely have been told that fathers would not be able to watch the lessons. And more to the point, the dad in the case should absolutely be able to get his money back. Personally there's no way in heck that I would have let my girls have swimming lessons without being able to watch (assuming my wife couldn't be there).
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^That

My rep button isn't broken; I'm just hampered by the silly rule of only being able to give out 5 reps in a 24 hr. period. Sorry, colton; you're part of the PTB and have to lose out on rep I would otherwise give.
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JK...I'll try to rep when I can (if I can remember).
 
I'm hardly a Muslim hater and frankly don't care one way or the other about most religion as long as it's peaceful.

That being said I'm with the dad on this one and in general can't stand people's religious values being thrust upon society. Keep them in your church/synagogue/mosque/temple.
 
I'll admit to not being well versed in Muslim traditions, but I thought that rule only applied to older females anyhow - don't know the actual age though.

I also thought that accommodations could be made by choice of bathing attire, allowing Muslim females to wear suits that provide full coverage.

At any rate, hopefully things will be spelled out more clearly in the future so other non-Muslims aren't blindsided by specific requirements.
 
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