Tough Day To Be In Law Enforcement

[bigb]

I just saw that the officer who killed Dante Wright was found guilty of manslaughter for shooting him with her gun instead of a taser.

I admit, I hadn’t paid attention to this at all. I have no idea whether he’s black or white. Yet I was not surprised that it happened in Minneapolis (same place as George Floyd) and it was over… expired registration.

Which brings up the main question asked almost two years ago: do we really need the police to handle these situations?

Broken taillights, expired registration, giving someone a counterfeit $20, I mean seriously??? Is that really worth their salary? Is it really worth risking escalation like we just saw with Dante Wright or George Floyd? Can’t expired registration be handled differently?

Earlier this year my wife let her car registration expire. Nothing malignant, she forgot about it. When she went to get her oil changed, the mechanic let her know that her registration had expired. No guns were needed. Didn't need cops. She paid to have the registration done there and we got the sticker. In 15 mins the issue was resolved and no one died from it.

It’s almost 2022, why are the police still wasting time with stupid issues like taillights and expired stickers?

I haven’t paid a lot of attention to it either, other than reading one article when she was convicted. He had an outstanding bench warrant. If I remember correctly, he was at first compliant and then jumped back in the car. So to say it was over expired registration doesn’t tell the whole story. But it leads back into Gameface’s posts.
I see the point you’re making, even if I don’t necessarily agree with it. I do think police have an obligation to enforce the law, even if they are stupid laws like a broken tail light or expired plates. If they’re not going to enforce those laws, why have them? Erase them from the books. I’d argue the roads become less safe. If I have no reason to fix my non functioning brake lights, why would I? It doesn’t affect me unless someone rear ends me. Then it’s their fault for not stopping.



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[fishonjazz]

So maybe I'm just weird like that but this got me thinking about a scenario.

If I walked into work, let's say I work at a mid-sized office, and my boss is dead on the floor I would call 911 and then go see if there is anything I can do or if he/she is just dead. I would tell the 911 operator that my boss is on the floor and appears to be dead and give the address to the office and even though they would ask me to stay on the line I'd go ahead and hang up.

When the police got there I would show them to the body. I would give them basic info, like my name and the dead person's name and position, etc. After that was out of the way and they started asking me more questions I would tell them that I need to talk to a lawyer before I answer any more of their questions. They would probably say "Don't you want to help us figure out what happened? Why would you need a lawyer if you've done nothing wrong?" I would say that this is a legal situation and I need a legal expert to advise me on how I should handle it, as I am not a legal expert and don't know what I should do.

Even if I wanted to give all the details I could think of at the scene, if they wanted me to go to the station so that I could make an official statement, that's where, even though I'm 1000% innocent. I would not do it without talking to a lawyer first. Through my lawyer I would provide as much information and assistance as I possibly could. But I will never under any circumstances for any reason go with police to sit in an interrogation room and provide them with any information without talking to a lawyer first. I don't care what the situation is.

I agree with that scenario more so than a cop pulling me over for speeding. In this scenario there is a dead body. I dont want there to be any chance that im involved in a murder case. In the speeding scenario im trying to think of the worst case scenario of me telling a cop im on my way home from fishing or something and about the worst think I can think of is that maybe I get let off with a warning or get a ticket.

 

[Gameface]

I agree with all of that. Yet I still believe that the statistics would show that people not breaking laws have less issues with police than people breaking laws.

Yeah and I agree with that. But I'm not trying to roll the dice.

 

[Gameface]

I agree with that scenario more so than a cop pulling me over for speeding. In this scenario there is a dead body. I dont want there to be any chance that im involved in a murder case. In the speeding scenario im trying to think of the worst case scenario of me telling a cop im on my way home from fishing or something and about the worst think I can think of is that maybe I get let off with a warning or get a ticket.

What if they just found a person shot dead at the lake you just got done fishing at?

I know, I know. I'm taking this a bit far at this point, but still.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yeah and I agree with that. But I'm not trying to roll the dice.

I kind of think you might be rolling the dice with your strategy though. I think it likely that answering a cops questions, when i haven't broken any laws, or not answering questions would both end up just fine most of the time. However I think that not cooperation could lead to the cop getting angry and maybe detaining me or using force on me or something. Sure in the end I would be in the right in that instance and would get the charges dropped in court and maybe even be able to sue. However I would rather just keep the drama out and go on about my day. I think being cooperative, even overly so, is the best way to achieve my goal of staying drama free.

 

[fishonjazz]

What if they just found a person shot dead at the lake you just got done fishing at?

I know, I know. I'm taking this a bit far at this point, but still.

No thats a fair point. I guess I just gotta play the percentages. I think that a cop asking me where im headed and me answering with "im not going to answer you as its not your business" or something similar could lead to things getting testy and heated. Or at the least drawing things out by the cop trying to get me to explain why I wont talk to him. I would imagine the cop would ask follow up questions like "why are you being so defensive" and say things like "if you have nothing to hide then you should have no problem answering me" or "your resistance to my questions makes you seem suspicious" etc.
I want to just avoid that convo and be on my way asap.

 

[Gameface]

No thats a fair point. I guess I just gotta play the percentages. I think that a cop asking me where im headed and me answering with "im not going to answer you as its not your business" or something similar could lead to things getting testy and heated. Or at the least drawing things out by the cop trying to get me to explain why I wont talk to him. I would imagine the cop would ask follow up questions like "why are you being so defensive" and say things like "if you have nothing to hide then you should have no problem answering me" or "your resistance to my questions makes you seem suspicious" etc.
I want to just avoid that convo and be on my way asap.

The police know that you don't have to answer questions. Getting aggressive with a person who chooses to remain silent could cost them their job. The important part for me is to be very polite, calm and cooperative. Not answering questions doesn't have to be confrontational. You can say "My lawyer friend told me I shouldn't answer questions, I'm just following their advice."

When I'm speaking to police I speak to them the way I would have spoken to a superior officer in the Navy. I'm polite, calm, professional and I always call them "Sir" or "Officer" basically every sentence I say. I have a tendency to act in a formal way even when I shouldn't but in situations like this I think it helps me. I'm very formal. I say things in plain simple language that leaves little room for interpretation. I don't try to make jokes. I don't try to be a smartass. I don't challenge them on anything they are saying.

If the officer starts getting agitated then I comply with whatever they want, short of answering questions. But I continue to refuse to answer questions in a very neutral non-argumentative way. "Sir, I just don't answer questions. With all due respect, I'm not trying to make your job any harder than it already is, I just have a personal commitment to remaining silent."

I provided a couple examples of times I've been pulled over and refused to answer the "where are you going?" question. I had very positive interactions both times.

 

[fishonjazz]

The police know that you don't have to answer questions. Getting aggressive with a person who chooses to remain silent could cost them their job. The important part for me is to be very polite, calm and cooperative. Not answering questions doesn't have to be confrontational. You can say "My lawyer friend told me I shouldn't answer questions, I'm just following their advice."

When I'm speaking to police I speak to them the way I would have spoken to a superior officer in the Navy. I'm polite, calm, professional and I always call them "Sir" or "Officer" basically every sentence I say. I have a tendency to act in a formal way even when I shouldn't but in situations like this I think it helps me. I'm very formal. I say things in plain simple language that leaves little room for interpretation. I don't try to make jokes. I don't try to be a smartass. I don't challenge them on anything they are saying.

If the officer starts getting agitated then I comply with whatever they want, short of answering questions. But I continue to refuse to answer questions in a very neutral non-argumentative way. "Sir, I just don't answer questions. With all due respect, I'm not trying to make your job any harder than it already is, I just have a personal commitment to remaining silent."

I provided a couple examples of times I've been pulled over and refused to answer the "where are you going?" question. I had very positive interactions both times.

I agree with you. Most of the time that strategy is fine. I have seen videos on youtube of a person employing your method. Dude didn't get detained, didn't get physically assaulted or anything but the conversation between the dude and the cop was much longer than necessary and the cops was visibly upset and agitate, though he kept his cool enough to not press things too far.
Thats just not my style. If im driving home from fishing and a cop pulls me over and asks how my day is I will probably say its been great, i just got done fishing. Maybe he asks how I did and I tell him that i had a great day and caught a nice 21 inch brown. He might congratulate me and ask if im headed home now and I respond, yes after I stop for a bite to eat first. Im excited to see my daughters dance recital tonight. He might say, I hope she does great. Enjoy your day.

I would leave that interaction feeling pretty good. Im a people person and sometimes enjoy talking to people with a friendly detailed discourse. Maybe that scenario goes incredibly wrong and I end up in prison for murder or something somehow but im comfortable taking my chances.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

No thats a fair point. I guess I just gotta play the percentages. I think that a cop asking me where im headed and me answering with "im not going to answer you as its not your business" or something similar could lead to things getting testy and heated. Or at the least drawing things out by the cop trying to get me to explain why I wont talk to him. I would imagine the cop would ask follow up questions like "why are you being so defensive" and say things like "if you have nothing to hide then you should have no problem answering me" or "your resistance to my questions makes you seem suspicious" etc.
I want to just avoid that convo and be on my way asap.

Sometimes innocent facts lead down a rabbit hole.

Not necessarily to get arrested, but to prolong a stop.

If a cop asks where you are coming from, and you say Dave & Busters, now he's going to ask if you've been drinking. Or may ask you to do field sobriety, etc.

And then you are at the somewhat subjective judgment of the officer if you are impaired (could be drugs not just alcohol).

So I agree with you generally, but never admit you are coming from a party, bar, restaurant, sporting event, etc., that serves alcohol, even if you weren't drinking. Although I understand tou drink like a Fish.

 

[fishonjazz]

Sometimes innocent facts lead down a rabbit hole.

Not necessarily to get arrested, but to prolong a stop.

If a cop asks where you are coming from, and you say Dave & Busters, now he's going to ask if you've been drinking. Or may ask you to do field sobriety, etc.

And then you are at the somewhat subjective judgment of the officer if you are impaired (could be drugs not just alcohol).

So I agree with you generally, but never admit you are coming from a party, bar, restaurant, sporting event, etc., that serves alcohol, even if you weren't drinking. Although I understand tou drink like a Fish.

Makes sense. Good advice. And come to think of it, people often drink when fishing


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[gandalfe]

I agree with that scenario more so than a cop pulling me over for speeding. In this scenario there is a dead body. I dont want there to be any chance that im involved in a murder case. In the speeding scenario im trying to think of the worst case scenario of me telling a cop im on my way home from fishing or something and about the worst think I can think of is that maybe I get let off with a warning or get a ticket.

You say you're coming back from fishing. "Oh, where were you?" "Up at Fish Lake, I took some time off work." "Oh, where do you work?" "I work for Employment, Inc."

And suddenly you're under investigation because your boss was murdered at Fish Lake and everyone knew you two didn't get along. Or you did but you wanted a promotion. Or the rumor is that you were sleeping with his wife.

Are the chances of that scenario good? No, but that type of thing can happen, because you never know what the cop is looking for. They're looking for ANYTHING.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

You say you're coming back from fishing. "Oh, where were you?" "Up at Fish Lake, I took some time off work." "Oh, where do you work?" "I work for Employment, Inc."

And suddenly you're under investigation because your boss was murdered at Fish Lake and everyone knew you two didn't get along. Or you did but you wanted a promotion. Or the rumor is that you were sleeping with his wife.

Are the chances of that scenario good? No, but that type of thing can happen, because you never know what the cop is looking for. They're looking for ANYTHING.

Fish has his own lake?