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Trade deadline discussion


LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2020-21 Award Winner
Our defensive lapses were compounded with our inabilities to continue to put points on the board. Game 6 we put up 72 points in the first half. That’s elite offense. We put up 47 points in the second half. Putting up 119 points looks elite in composite. We put up 10 points in the last 5 minutes.
To me this is again coaching. Quin doesn't adjust well on the fly. He does well during halftime and even between quarters at time, but once he has a system set he doesn't deviate even if it isn't working. It's also his ability to get his team to do what he wants them to do. Once they go maverick he kind of loses them. Either that or he defers to them. Either way it's on him to get them to execute the plan.
 


Handlogten's Heros

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2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
We didn’t have Bogey for a series and played elite offensively and we didn’t have Conley and played elite offensively. I think there’s more than enough room to spare some offense for defense. Whether that’s Bogey/Ingles/Clarkson, I don’t think any of them should be off limits. Yeah, we’d miss them. But you know what I really miss right now? Not embarrassing ourselves defensively in the playoffs.

Conley would fit in this category too, but he’s just a lot better than them on both ends. He’s our best bet against Ja, CP3, and Curry….which is a testament to Mike but also embarrassing for the rest of the team.

If Bogey could get Smart, which might only be available if the Simmons-Brown trade happens, I’d do that. I know there are concerns about size, but to me Smart is better in every “big man” category on defense than Bogey.

Ideally you move Clarkson. I think he’s the least helpful and might get phased out during the playoffs….but nobody is going to want him right now.

We should have shipped someone to NOP this summer for Hart and some picks back. Too bad that fleecing window is probably over.
We played elite offense against Denver who was a super ****** defensive team. We also had a version of Ingles I don’t think we are getting.

The fact that we didn’t have Conley in a series and we’re elite is not a testament to the fact we should trade Bogey for more defense… without bogey in that series we aren’t elite offensively. He’s a critical part to this offense being a juggernaut. Rudy Gay is a great addition but he can’t ramp up and give us 30+ minutes… he old.

You move “offense” for defense by moving JC or Joe. “Offense” in quotes because JC is high volume inefficient so are you really sacrificing much. JC has no defensive utility… bogey does. I think Joe is checked out… all the insider reports are that he emptied the clip, isn’t locked in, etc. Visibly he looks out of shape (more than normal). He isn’t moving well at all. He’s checked out of a season before when Jacob was diagnosed… I think he’s halfway back to Australia right now.

Bogey will be and is necessary… especially since Donovan is unlikely to continue his supernova playoff performances… he will still be great but to expect 35 plus points a game would be a bit optimistic. I don’t think what we net in a trade of Bogey is likely to be so much better than what we get for JC or Joe.
 

Handlogten's Heros

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2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Alright... so here is my four team trade... likely do a follow up trade after this move, but I'd also do it on its own.

Utah out: Joe Ingles, Udoka
Utah In: Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, Isaiah Roby

Clips out: Ibaka Batum
Clips In: Udoka

Deal saves Clips like $50M this year which is something they are rumored to be interested in... they may have to kick in a second to OKC

OKC out: Roby
OKC In: Ricky Rubio, #33 from Cleveland (they own Houstons 2nd) and 37 from Cleveland they own SA's second.

They are like 20M below the salary floor... taking Rickys contract gives them actual cash savings because they have to pay out the money and Ricky's cap number exceeds what they actually pay him... insurance is likely picking up part of the tab too.

Cleveland out: Ricky and the 33 and 37th pick this year.
Cleveland in: Joe Ingles

Gives them a one year stop gap... maybe they keep him if it works out but they can continue their run with another ball handler shooter.

We get some cap savings... a stretch 5 who is healthy for now... another wing that can replace some of what Joe gave us but hopefully a defensive upgrade. Might make Royce a little more expendable if a deal for a real defensive stopper comes along... gives us some good savings as well. Cleveland may not send out both second round picks... but we could add one of lesser value and I think its still close for OKC... picks in the 30s aren't sold off so they are more valuable.

Might be a little light to some team but I think the gap is easy to make up. Cleveland was one of the teams rumored to be interested in Joe this offseason iirc. I think it makes sense.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
He isnt rated very high in any of those this year or recently. Pretty average. His defense numbers arent anything special on those. Maybe comes out better than Bogey but that is a pretty low standard for defense. He seems to rank lower than Royce in all of those. On RAPTOR Smart is 71st and Royce is 65th. In the real +/- for last year Smart is ranked 119th. There isnt numbers for this year but for comparison Gobert was #1, Royce was #18, even Bojan is 63rd. Even Conley is rated higher on almost every advanced stat on both ends of the court.

I think Smart is a better defender than Mitchell, Clarkson, and Bogey. But again that is a low standard and I dont see him as much of an improvement, especially considering his poor shooting.

I will buy the eye test and him being all of the place idea though. He does have a big motor and hustles every where. I think that energy could be helpful on the team. But I think plenty of other players can give that for a much cheaper price.

"Love" was probably the wrong word to use. That should be reserved for someone like Conley who is advanced stat god..but they do like him and he is a huge improvement on the guys we're talking about moving for him.
 

campaignist

Well-Known Member
Alright... so here is my four team trade... likely do a follow up trade after this move, but I'd also do it on its own.

Utah out: Joe Ingles, Udoka
Utah In: Serge Ibaka, Nic Batum, Isaiah Roby

Clips out: Ibaka Batum
Clips In: Udoka

Deal saves Clips like $50M this year which is something they are rumored to be interested in... they may have to kick in a second to OKC

OKC out: Roby
OKC In: Ricky Rubio, #33 from Cleveland (they own Houstons 2nd) and 37 from Cleveland they own SA's second.

They are like 20M below the salary floor... taking Rickys contract gives them actual cash savings because they have to pay out the money and Ricky's cap number exceeds what they actually pay him... insurance is likely picking up part of the tab too.

Cleveland out: Ricky and the 33 and 37th pick this year.
Cleveland in: Joe Ingles

Gives them a one year stop gap... maybe they keep him if it works out but they can continue their run with another ball handler shooter.

We get some cap savings... a stretch 5 who is healthy for now... another wing that can replace some of what Joe gave us but hopefully a defensive upgrade. Might make Royce a little more expendable if a deal for a real defensive stopper comes along... gives us some good savings as well. Cleveland may not send out both second round picks... but we could add one of lesser value and I think its still close for OKC... picks in the 30s aren't sold off so they are more valuable.

Might be a little light to some team but I think the gap is easy to make up. Cleveland was one of the teams rumored to be interested in Joe this offseason iirc. I think it makes sense.
I kinda think Ibaka is toast, and I’d rather route him somewhere else for a pick or something, but I’d do this for sure. I think the other teams would too, depending on what needs to be added or subtracted.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
We played elite offense against Denver who was a super ****** defensive team. We also had a version of Ingles I don’t think we are getting.

The fact that we didn’t have Conley in a series and we’re elite is not a testament to the fact we should trade Bogey for more defense… without bogey in that series we aren’t elite offensively. He’s a critical part to this offense being a juggernaut. Rudy Gay is a great addition but he can’t ramp up and give us 30+ minutes… he old.

You move “offense” for defense by moving JC or Joe. “Offense” in quotes because JC is high volume inefficient so are you really sacrificing much. JC has no defensive utility… bogey does. I think Joe is checked out… all the insider reports are that he emptied the clip, isn’t locked in, etc. Visibly he looks out of shape (more than normal). He isn’t moving well at all. He’s checked out of a season before when Jacob was diagnosed… I think he’s halfway back to Australia right now.

Bogey will be and is necessary… especially since Donovan is unlikely to continue his supernova playoff performances… he will still be great but to expect 35 plus points a game would be a bit optimistic. I don’t think what we net in a trade of Bogey is likely to be so much better than what we get for JC or Joe.

We can go back and forth on this...but there's just no shot I'm more concerned about our offense than our defense. It's not even a remotely close proposition. If I were to design out a fake scenario that would give me confidence in moving offense for defense, I would have the Jazz play great offense for two full seasons while a man down and also carry that to the playoffs. That's exactly what happened. I don't know what would convince you that we can spare some offense for defense, but what has occurred the past two seasons could not make it more clear what the areas of surplus.

I'm confident we can be elite on offense without Bogey. We did it the year before and did it again without a player that is better and more integral than Bogey. If we had no Bogey and no Conley....yeah that would be different. I'm not preparing for that situation. What I also have confidence in is that we can't defend as currently constituted. To say there would be zero concern would be incorrect, but it has no comparison to my concerns about the defense. We'd get so much more out of having one more good defender than this gigantic surplus of offense.

We don't have to trade Bogey, but if we're not willing to that is a mistake. Of course I would prefer to trade JC (I'm still confident in Ingles), but I don't think the trade value is similar for all the same reasons why you think Bogey is a better player. Bogey's value is much higher because a much better player right now.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
2 questions I have:

#1 is our main goal to win a title or stay relevant (like not become the Kings)?

#2 if our main goal is to stay relevant, I dont think we should take any big risk before the deadline. If our goal is a title, don't we have to make a substantial trade (which comes with risk) before the deadline?

Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
We can go back and forth on this...but there's just no shot I'm more concerned about our offense than our defense. It's not even a remotely close proposition. If I were to design out a fake scenario that would give me confidence in moving offense for defense, I would have the Jazz play great offense for two full seasons while a man down and also carry that to the playoffs. That's exactly what happened. I don't know what would convince you that we can spare some offense for defense, but what has occurred the past two seasons could not make it more clear what the areas of surplus.

I'm confident we can be elite on offense without Bogey. We did it the year before and did it again without a player that is better and more integral than Bogey. If we had no Bogey and no Conley....yeah that would be different. I'm not preparing for that situation. What I also have confidence in is that we can't defend as currently constituted. To say there would be zero concern would be incorrect, but it has no comparison to my concerns about the defense. We'd get so much more out of having one more good defender than this gigantic surplus of offense.

We don't have to trade Bogey, but if we're not willing to that is a mistake. Of course I would prefer to trade JC (I'm still confident in Ingles), but I don't think the trade value is similar for all the same reasons why you think Bogey is a better player. Bogey's value is much higher because a much better player right now.
The trade value comment... in a perfectly efficient market I would agree... but what I think is that you can get something that helps defense with Joe and stuff or JC and stuff... what you can get for Bogey will not be a lot more than what those offers will fetch. The offense downgrade (and yes there will be an offensive downgrade) would be more significant than the defensive upgrade. Swapping out JC might even become an upgrade on both sides of the ball. Folks around here lump in Joe/JC/Bogey like they all equal... it really isn't close. Bogey is on par with Mike or damn close to it.

The trade match with Bogey is tough to find... please come up some realistic hypotheticals and you quickly see the issues. Teams with good two way wings are likely contending and not willing to make a swap. Teams in rebuilding mode or up and comers aren't necessarily able to offer what we want and don't necessarily value what Bogey brings. Swapping Bogey for Hart or RoCo or some of this other stuff is not an upgrade overall. They are solid defenders but not impact defenders... in certain matchups Bogey is a solid defender... but he's always an impactful offensive player.

The Denver series really is not a good sample to base anything off of. That was a ****** defense in an empty arena. Its not surprising we survived when Donovan scored 100 pts a game... it also won't happen again. We were +14 per ORTG last year in the playoffs with Bogey on the court... but yeah I'm sure Niang would have been exactly the same... -10 with Joe... -14 with JC. Niang -9 (Niang was tethered to Rudy so it isn't just a Rudy thing).

I just don't think we are viewing Bogey with the proper respect at all.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Ibaka and Batum are washed and I believe Serge is earning a bazillion dollars a year which would make the Jazz luxury tax situation worse.
Joe might be washed too... and the salaries actually match and save us money. Ibaka has played well since coming back from injury. Batum is playing okay but dealing with a heel injury.
 

Jingled

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
We played elite offense against Denver who was a super ****** defensive team. We also had a version of Ingles I don’t think we are getting.

The fact that we didn’t have Conley in a series and we’re elite is not a testament to the fact we should trade Bogey for more defense… without bogey in that series we aren’t elite offensively. He’s a critical part to this offense being a juggernaut. Rudy Gay is a great addition but he can’t ramp up and give us 30+ minutes… he old.

You move “offense” for defense by moving JC or Joe. “Offense” in quotes because JC is high volume inefficient so are you really sacrificing much. JC has no defensive utility… bogey does. I think Joe is checked out… all the insider reports are that he emptied the clip, isn’t locked in, etc. Visibly he looks out of shape (more than normal). He isn’t moving well at all. He’s checked out of a season before when Jacob was diagnosed… I think he’s halfway back to Australia right now.

Bogey will be and is necessary… especially since Donovan is unlikely to continue his supernova playoff performances… he will still be great but to expect 35 plus points a game would be a bit optimistic. I don’t think what we net in a trade of Bogey is likely to be so much better than what we get for JC or Joe.

Which insider reports?
 

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