Trade deadline discussion

[Handlogten's Heros]

The Jazz key players got blasted against Clippers in games 3-6. It won't matter if we're better in the 6-10 minutes Niang/Favors played if we our main lineup can't even compete with a Kawhi-less Clippers squad. Without Conley and Mitchell was injured....sure. But that was ugly.

I mean we were without one of our key players... so we never got to the main lineups until Mike came limping in for game 6. The Clips got a ton of contributions from guys that aren't in their main closing lineup... they also had a malleable roster that allowed them to discover the small ball that ended up really burying us.

Its also just dumb to think that 6-10 minutes don't matter... we actually could sneak out 12-18 minutes with a different player if they aren't ****ing awful... then maybe your main guys have a little in the tank. Margins are small in the playoffs... 6 minutes in the 3rd aren't as important as 6 minutes to close the game but they are still important. You can also do a little defense for offense substitutions in the last couple minutes since the game stops so much.

Bogey wasn't the reason we got blasted in the clips series and was one of the reasons we had a fighting chance. And if all your main players are getting blasted... then swapping out Bogey won't matter either... so you can't assume your main guys will get blasted again.

Championship teams get key contributions from the bench and spot players every year. It all matters.

 

[Hekate]

Conley was unnecessary based of what he has provided in the playoffs over 2 years. We would have been better served giving Don more touches in that role


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So was Mitchell and Gobert considering we lost the series.

I doubt Mitchell ever becomes a Harden, Luka type but how would Don pick up how to play PG without Conley and Rubio? It's not like Rubio didn't help Darius Garland who is a MIP candidate now. Tutelage matters and while Mitchell improved, he improved mainly as a shotmaker who passes not as a playmaker.

Everybody wants to like Conley because he's a great dude. He really is. But some cute regular season numbers don't cover the issues.

Don and Conley don't work together.

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It works on offense, it doesn't work on defense because of Mitchell not Conley.

 

[Eminence]

1) He most certainly does; When he's open. As importantly, though, he doesn't chuck.
2) You know Steph Curry can run our offense after a midseason trade (this is not a dig)? More relevantly, is he available?
3) Why wouldn't we? Donovan is just not good at running the offense and spreading out the scoring, the primary ball handler has to be able to punish a defender that goes under the screen (which Mike is great at), and the Jazz cannot lose any defensive ability.

1) I'll say I underrated how often he does it after looking at the stats (approximately 15th in volume of 3s off the dribble/game).

2) Don't whine, you said Mike was the only guy in the league who could do it and that's bull. I listed the most obvious counterexample.

3) Don is currently our 1A ballhandler and is doing fairly well in that role (in particular I'd like to see him improve sharing the ball late in games and in throwing lobs to Rudy). I don't think moving him to our clear #1 and getting a #2 back in a Conley trade is going to tank our offense.

Conley wouldn't be my first choice to trade, but he's shouldn't be off the table either.

 

[LoPo]

So was Mitchell and Gobert considering we lost the series.

I doubt Mitchell ever becomes a Harden, Luka type but how would Don pick up how to play PG without Conley and Rubio? It's not like Rubio didn't help Darius Garland who is a MIP candidate now. Tutelage matters and while Mitchell improved, he improved mainly as a shotmaker who passes not as a playmaker.

It works on offense, it doesn't work on defense because of Mitchell not Conley.

You're so ridiculous. If we hadn't put so many assets into Conley, Don and Rudy might have won the series.

Conley wasn't brought in to tutor. He was brought in to be the missing piece. What mistake.

If Conley is so good and Don is so bad, trade Don. Oh wait, the only Memphis game we lost last year was when Conley ran the team and Don sat.

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[Hekate]

You're so ridiculous. If we hadn't put so many assets into Conley, Don and Rudy might have won the series.

Conley wasn't brought in to tutor. He was brought in to be the missing piece. What mistake.

If Conley is so good and Don is so bad, trade Don. Oh wait, the only Memphis game we lost last year was when Conley ran the team and Don sat.

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What assets? Brandon Clarke who only began to play well last 2 weeks? Grayson Allen who is still a terrible defender and only got playing time because Donte Divincenzo got injured. Or the least important starter that plays for the Suns?

And the initial trade was never my discussion but you are confused and haven't really been building an argument.

Conley wasn't brought in as a tutor but that doesn't mean Mitchell won't pick things up from him. He probably did but that didn't make him able to run the offense smoothly and consistently.

I have never said Don is a bad player. He is probably the best PnR scorer in the league and creates so much out of it but he isn't a natural PG. He needs someone to lessen his burdens, this isn't really a hard concept. If you bog him down with that burden, he won't be as effective.

The reason people are hard on Mitchell is because the most simple way we become a true contender is that he starts playing some defense. Doesn't need to become a difference maker, doesn't need to lockdown anyone. Just needs to fight through some screens and raise his head and rotate.

 

[campaignist]

I’m late to the party but Richardson should only be an option for Ingles and possibly JC, definitely not for Conley. He’d help but not that much, and not worth Conley. Adding Williams isn’t an incentive because if you’re trading a rotation player, it needs to be a 1-for-1 upgrade.

 

[LoPo]

What assets? Brandon Clarke who only began to play well last 2 weeks? Grayson Allen who is still a terrible defender and only got playing time because Donte Divincenzo got injured. Or the least important starter that plays for the Suns?

And the initial trade was never my discussion but you are confused and haven't really been building an argument.

Conley wasn't brought in as a tutor but that doesn't mean Mitchell won't pick things up from him. He probably did but that didn't make him able to run the offense smoothly and consistently.

I have never said Don is a bad player. He is probably the best PnR scorer in the league and creates so much out of it but he isn't a natural PG. He needs someone to lessen his burdens, this isn't really a hard concept. If you bog him down with that burden, he won't be as effective.

The reason people are hard on Mitchell is because the most simple way we become a true contender is that he starts playing some defense. Doesn't need to become a difference maker, doesn't need to lockdown anyone. Just needs to fight through some screens and raise his head and rotate.

If Conley, Don, Bojan and Royce all play to their absolute defensive bests, we are not a contender.
#1 - they aren't that good even at their bests.
#2 - they are undersized or lack athleticism.
#3 - we don't have a defensive specialist helping off the bench to address the size/athleticism issues.

I don't understand why that concept is so hard. Sure Conley can help the offense. Sure things can improve individually and collectively. But we still don't have the horses necessary to battle the teams that do.

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[Hekate]

If Conley, Don, Bojan and Royce all play to their absolute defensive bests, we are not a contender.
#1 - they aren't that good even at their bests.
#2 - they are undersized or lack athleticism.
#3 - we don't have a defensive specialist helping off the bench to address the size/athleticism issues.

I don't understand why that concept is so hard. Sure Conley can help the offense. Sure things can improve individually and collectively. But we still don't have the horses necessary to battle the teams that do.

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You don't need to trade Conley, Don, Bojan and Royce to improve defensively. Any amount you get helps and we don't need to be able get a stop everytime. Making them work for it and giving our offense a chance to win us games is enough. The problem was never that we didn't play great defense, it was just that we were so bad that our great offense didn't win us the games we should. That's achievable with a trade that works around the margins. Especially if Rudy Gay settles in and plays more like last year.

Getting that 10-12 minutes of defensive player isn't sexy like a starter but it is absolutely worth it. Heck even House could be a part of the rotation and help us in the playoffs and if we drop defensive negatives that aren't really integral to offense like Clarkson or Ingles and get a similar talent, all the better.

Also this is my last post in this argument.

 

[NUMBERICA]

If Conley, Don, Bojan and Royce all play to their absolute defensive bests, we are not a contender.
#1 - they aren't that good even at their bests.
#2 - they are undersized or lack athleticism.
#3 - we don't have a defensive specialist helping off the bench to address the size/athleticism issues.

I don't understand why that concept is so hard. Sure Conley can help the offense. Sure things can improve individually and collectively. But we still don't have the horses necessary to battle the teams that do.

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If all is lost, why are you here? Honest question.

 

[KqWIN]

I mean we were without one of our key players... so we never got to the main lineups until Mike came limping in for game 6. The Clips got a ton of contributions from guys that aren't in their main closing lineup... they also had a malleable roster that allowed them to discover the small ball that ended up really burying us.

Its also just dumb to think that 6-10 minutes don't matter... we actually could sneak out 12-18 minutes with a different player if they aren't ****ing awful... then maybe your main guys have a little in the tank. Margins are small in the playoffs... 6 minutes in the 3rd aren't as important as 6 minutes to close the game but they are still important. You can also do a little defense for offense substitutions in the last couple minutes since the game stops so much.

Bogey wasn't the reason we got blasted in the clips series and was one of the reasons we had a fighting chance. And if all your main players are getting blasted... then swapping out Bogey won't matter either... so you can't assume your main guys will get blasted again.

Championship teams get key contributions from the bench and spot players every year. It all matters.

Sure I was being hyperbolic, the 6-10 minutes do matter, but if you're getting destroyed in the other minutes....you have much bigger problems. The problem with the Jazz is that their key players were not good enough in the playoffs. And when you're talking about the end of rotation, their performance is heavily dependent on the key players. It's not like we're rolling out 5 bench players at once that play 6-10 minutes. They're mixing in with the starters and the starters are not good enough to win those minutes. We can't pretend like putting in Niang or Favors for 3 was the entire reason their lineups were failing. Gay and Whiteside may prove to be playoff upgrades, but we're still going to if our key players can't produce a defense that isn't historically bad.

As far as Bogey, yes he was absolutely part of the problem. He had his moments guarding Kawhi, but as a whole he is a bad defender. He provides nothing as a defensive playmaker or rebounder. More importantly, he provides nothing as a help defender. And I'm not singling him out here. The whole team was horrific on defense....but defense is the problem and everyone has to have some responsibility for that. Outside of maybe Rudy (who could have played better himself), everyone is the reason why we got blasted. That doesn't mean he was a useless player. Don is responsible for the horrible defense too. He was arguably the best player in the series, but he was absolutely part of the problem.

There isn't a championship that performs way worse than league worst on defense. The magnitude of this defensive issue, which is a key player issue, is wayyyy bigger than upgrading on the Niang and Favors minutes. The Jazz blew a 25 point lead in less than a half with zero minutes from Niang and Favors.

 

[LoPo]

If all is lost, why are you here? Honest question.

I've been here for years hoping the Jazz turn the corner and win a title. I don't stick my head up my *** and hope things change which won't change.

You guys get so hellbent on forcing a round peg into a square hole. I'm willing to make the calls that others don't. You guys get too emotional about these players.

If Favors doesn't fit next to Rudy, trade him. If Conley doesn't fit next to Don, trade him.

I want to win a title. I guess I'm in a forum that likes to throw hissyfits about Jazz fans having a different opinion.

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[Handlogten's Heros]

Sure I was being hyperbolic, the 6-10 minutes do matter, but if you're getting destroyed in the other minutes....you have much bigger problems. The problem with the Jazz is that their key players were not good enough in the playoffs. And when you're talking about the end of rotation, their performance is heavily dependent on the key players. It's not like we're rolling out 5 bench players at once that play 6-10 minutes. They're mixing in with the starters and the starters are not good enough to win those minutes. We can't pretend like putting in Niang or Favors for 3 was the entire reason their lineups were failing. Gay and Whiteside may prove to be playoff upgrades, but we're still going to if our key players can't produce a defense that isn't historically bad.

As far as Bogey, yes he was absolutely part of the problem. He had his moments guarding Kawhi, but as a whole he is a bad defender. He provides nothing as a defensive playmaker or rebounder. More importantly, he provides nothing as a help defender. And I'm not singling him out here. The whole team was horrific on defense....but defense is the problem and everyone has to have some responsibility for that. Outside of maybe Rudy (who could have played better himself), everyone is the reason why we got blasted. That doesn't mean he was a useless player. Don is responsible for the horrible defense too. He was arguably the best player in the series, but he was absolutely part of the problem.

There isn't a championship that performs way worse than league worst on defense. The magnitude of this defensive issue, which is a key player issue, is wayyyy bigger than upgrading on the Niang and Favors minutes. The Jazz blew a 25 point lead in less than a half with zero minutes from Niang and Favors.

If you feel like the issues are that severe then the issue is bigger than Bogey or any one of our starters. We need to swap out multiple pieces in that case. Which is flat out not gonna happen… not many championship teams trade multiple starters mid season.

Finding a piece or two off the bench that can play 25 minutes or so depending on matchup could have a good impact… obviously a guy that plays more minutes will have a bigger impact… but you also have to scan out a bit too. If a guy plays 42 minutes a night because his team can’t survive without him… it is likely some of those minutes get a diminishing return because guys aren’t robots… if you have capable players to allow that guy breaks it will help. It also helps protect against the foul trouble issue. Sometimes guys can’t be aggressive because they need to avoid fouls. So a bench player can also help those key lineups.

Based on the lineup data from the playoffs the key lineups were pretty good… regular season says the same thing. I disagree with the original premise of the argument that unless a player from that group is swapped out he can’t have a meaningful impact… in part because they wouldn’t close. If you’d like to take a four game sample from one playoff series where we had one key player out and one key player on one leg then fine… but we never really got to the “main” lineup in that series. Didn’t in the Denver series the year before either.

Trading Bogey to shake up something that was getting “destroyed” will almost certainly end in something worse. I’d love to hear a few of these trades. Kyle Anderson and RoCo would maybe get us 3-4 more stops per game than Bogey but they’d almost certainly give all that back with poor shooting and lack of any other offensive game… would also increase the interior pressure on Donovan, Mike, and Rudy. I think the net becomes way worse… and we’d be better off rolling the dice by trading JC or Joe (by all accounts he’s lacking energy and focus this year). Even if the replacement isn’t on the court at the end of the game… the other 24 minutes or so they give us can still be very meaningful.