Transgender and sports

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I dont think I ever made the statement "I dont think sports leagues can be trusted to make their own rules"

Yet, you've been busy talking about how trans women shouldn't compete with cis women, even though leagues have rules to cover when trans women qualify. It can't both be true that you trust the leagues to make the rules and that you think they are doing it wrong.

 

[One Brow]

I agree with most of this but when it comes to competition I just don’t. If I’m a woman and I busted my *** my entire life to be the best in the world at my sport and then have someone who’s transitioned not only beat me but shatter records, I’d be a little more than livid about it.

So far, that has not happened. Is there a single world record owned by a trans person? I've been looking, and haven't found one. So, instead of worrying about the laser beams from Mars, how about some thought for the people that face threats of violence on a regular basis?

 

[One Brow]

Or maybe said athletes breaking records and all of a sudden going from nobodies in their sports to elite is just a coincidence.

Actually, it's fictional. For example, Thomas was already the second best swimmer in the men's Ivy League as a freshmen for lengths 500y-2000y. If she had not transitioned, she'd be dominating men's Ivy League swimming instead of women's Ivy League swimming.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yet, you've been busy talking about how trans women shouldn't compete with cis women, even though leagues have rules to cover when trans women qualify. It can't both be true that you trust the leagues to make the rules and that you think they are doing it wrong.

Of course it can silly. I totally think leagues can be trusted to make their own rules even if I dont agree with those rules. All kinds of organizations make rules that I dont agree with.

 

[Miggs]

So far, that has not happened. Is there a single world record owned by a trans person? I've been looking, and haven't found one. So, instead of worrying about the laser beams from Mars, how about some thought for the people that face threats of violence on a regular basis?

Redirect Notice

 

[Miggs]

Actually, it's fictional. For example, Thomas was already the second best swimmer in the men's Ivy League as a freshmen for lengths 500y-2000y. If she had not transitioned, she'd be dominating men's Ivy League swimming instead of women's Ivy League swimming.

Big difference between being the best in the mediocre Ivy League to now having a real chance at breaking all-time National Female Collegiate Records.

 

[One Brow]

Redirect Notice

The article says she might compete for records. Her best time on the 50y is 5 seconds to slow, and the 200 about 10s too slow. So, she's competing for maybe one record (still a few seconds off the 100y), and maybe not (her times have ben going down this season). Either way, there are still 0, that is, none, nada, zip world records held by trans people.

Big difference between being the best in the mediocre Ivy League to now having a real chance at breaking all-time National Female Collegiate Records.

That's exactly what i have been saying! I completely agree, and Thomas is obviously a case of the former and not the latter.

But, by all means, be terrified.

 

[One Brow]

I do trust them. USA Swimming, the governing organization and an organization for which I am a coach, came out and effectively banned biological males from competing against women if they went through puberty as a male because the ignorant nonsense you've been spouting for the last couple weeks is stupid.

Good for them, if that was their decision, and I support their right to make such a decision. However, you seem to have lied about the contents of their ruling. This is from the article you linked to:

In part, here is what USA Swimming decided in its new Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equity and Eligibility Policy.

The elite athlete policy will be implemented by a decision-making panel comprised of three independent medical experts and eligibility criteria will consist of:

• Evidence that the prior physical development of the athlete as a male, as mitigated by any medical intervention, does not give the athlete a competitive advantage over the athlete’s cisgender female competitors.

• Evidence that the concentration of testosterone in the athlete’s serum has been less than 5 nmol/L (as measured by liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry) continuously for a period of at least thirty-six (36) months before the date of application.

I went to the website on Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equity, and Eligibility Policy. It leads to 8 links, Puberty is mentioned in exactly once in each of those 8 links, and it only refers to minor athletes. It is a lie that this policy bans trans people who went through puberty as males, effectively or otherwise.

It appears that you are as uninformed on the new rules as you were on everything else in this controversy.

Since we were discussing NCAA swimming, which new rules would those be in NCAA swimming?

Unlike NCAA and Its Cowardly Approach, USA Swimming Demonstrated Leadership With New Transgender Policy

By adopting a new transgender policy that protects fairness for biological females, USA Swimming demonstrated guts and leadership.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com

Let's look at these new rules, Mr. USA Swimming Coach.

https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/governance/governance-lsc-website/rules_policies/usa-swimming-policy-19.pdf

Male-to-Female Transition Athletes who have transitioned, or are transitioning, from a Male biological gender assignment at birth to a Female gender assignment must, before being declared eligible to compete in the Female competition category:
(a) Satisfy the Self-Identity Verification set forth in Paragraph 5 below.
(b) Satisfy the conditions set forth in Paragraph 6 below, “Elite Event Fairness Conditions” if the athlete:
i. Has achieved “Elite Athlete” status as defined in Paragraph 4(c) below;
ii. Desires to compete in an “Elite Event” as defined in Paragraph 4(c) below; and/or
iii. Desires to have a competitive time recognized by USA Swimming as an American Record.
(c) “Elite Athletes” and “Elite Events”. For purposes of this Policy, “Elite Athletes” shall include any athlete who has achieved a USA Swimming Junior National time standard and desires to participate in any of the following “Elite Events” defined for purposes of this Policy as: any United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee (“USOPC”) Delegation Event and/or Protected Competition as 42 defined in the USOPC Bylaws; Fédération Internationale de Natation (“FINA”) Events; PanPacific Championships; World University Games; USA Swimming Nationals, Junior Nationals, U.S. Open, International Team Trials, U.S. Olympic Team Trials - Swimming; and/or any other competition designated by USA Swimming as an “Elite Event” and any other event which conditions entry on meeting the USA Swimming Junior National Time Standard or faster. For purposes of this Policy, Elite Events shall also include any other competition in which a qualifying time standard is achieved for entry into the other Elite Events described above or to be eligible to set an American or National Age-Group Record at the 13-14 level or above.

I notice that there are no NCAA events included in the list of "Elite Events". Further, I notice that *only* the Elite events have restrictions. Trans women would be welcome to compete at any non-Elite Event (much like Lia Thomas is swimming in the Ivy League, not the truly competitive swimming leagues).

Mr. USA Swimming Coach, I suggest you read your own rules more carefully.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Since we were discussing NCAA swimming, which new rules would those be in NCAA swimming?

Kudos to you for asking the question and not answering your own question when you think you know the answer like so many people do. The ruling of the NCAA was to pass buck. They didn't have the backbone to make the decision so they made it their new policy to use a sport-specific policy that allowed the governing bodies to set the guidelines. With swimming, the governing body is USA Swimming.

"Under the new policy, Thomas will need to be in compliance with USA Swimming’s criteria in order to compete at the NCAA championships in March."

NCAA adopts new, sport-specific transgender policy

Effective immediately, the NCAA will look to each sport's individual governing bodies to determine transgender participation in its sports.

justwomenssports.com

I also know you are not a swimmer and seem to be trying to find loopholes in the language, but trust me. It is over. They are demanding 3 years of sub-5 nmol/L testosterone AND getting the approval of a "Fairness Panel" for athletes aged over 12.

 

[One Brow]

Kudos to you for asking the question and not answering your own question when you think you know the answer like so many people do. The ruling of the NCAA was to pass buck. They didn't have the backbone to make the decision so they made it their new policy to use a sport-specific policy that allowed the governing bodies to set the guidelines. With swimming, the governing body is USA Swimming.



I also know you are not a swimmer and seem to be trying to find loopholes in the language, but trust me. It is over. They are demanding 3 years of sub-5 nmol/L testosterone AND getting the approval of a "Fairness Panel" for athletes aged over 12.

For Elite Events only (caps as in the rules, not my choice). Did the Ivy League meets become Elite Events?

 

[One Brow]

The Ivy League Women's Swimming Championships were last week. Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships, and wasn't close to an NCAA record. So, I wonder who in this thread will admit they were worried over nothing?

@Al-O-Meter (aka Mr. Swim Coach)?
@TheGoldStandard ?
@Scat ?
@fishonjazz ?
@slc ?
@Keefe ?

I guess we go 0 for 6. Bigots will be bigots.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Lia Thomas participated and won three events, but in each case she was too slow to qualify to participate in the NCAA championships

As in every other post you've made on the subject, you prove once again that you don't know what you are talking about. Lia Thomas did qualify for the NCAA championships and thanks to a last minute decision by the NCAA where they reversed themselves to take back their previous position of deferring to USA Swimming, Thomas will be allowed to complete at the NCAA championships this year.

Trans swimmer Lia Thomas wins 4 races at Ivy championships, heads to NCAA finals

The Penn student’s record-setting wins come amid a wave of anti-transgender media coverage and an ongoing debate about trans athletes in women’s sports.

www.nbcnews.com