Transgender and sports

[One Brow]

It is neither. That is why you can't find evidence to the contrary The NCAA defers to the guidelines set by the parent organizations of sports such as the IAAF. The only exception is for swimming, for this year only, appliers only to transgender women (not to transgender women or biological females), and that was instituted during this swimming season for the remainder of this season in swimming which has now concluded.

You didn't link to any of this, and I suppose you expect me to take this on your word? The problem is, the clause, "The only exception is for swimming" is explicitly contradicted by the NCAA document to which I linked, a document updated in Feb-2022, which lists explicit levels in a variety of sports for trans women, not just swimming. "For this year only" is contradicted by this NCAA link, which explicitly says "Transgender student-athletes who are participating in regular season competition (including conference championships) for the remainder of academic year 2022 remain subject to the 2010 NCAA policy only." 12 years is longer than one year.

I await your evidence that, this year, cis female NCAA swimmers were limited in their testosterone level. Until that happens, your claim that cis women were so limited still looks like a lie.

It does look like the NCAA will follow the USA Swimming guidelines next year, and I agree the consistency is nice.

The IAAF then spent 2 years doing a scientific study proving that testosterone provides a significant performance advantage and re-instituted the 5 nmol/L which stands to this day because it is now backed scientific study.

Which does not change the fundamental dishonesty you presented in points 1) and 3).

Lia Thomas was cheating

Yet, you have yet to name an NCAA rule that she broke. Since USA Swimming does not consider the NCAA events to be elite events, she broke no USA Swimming rules, either.

Going forward an athlete will not be able to do what Lia Thomas did in the NCAA as future athletes will be subject to the guidelines of sport parent organization USA Swimming.

Why not? What's Thomas's testosterone level?

 

[One Brow]

Because one issue is biological and the other is a social construct that research has shown has a better outcome when addressing it after puberty.

Why is being intersex a biological "issue", instead of simply a state of existence?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Why not? What's Thomas's testosterone level?

It doesn't matter. The guidelines going forward require 3 years of documented sub-5 nmol/L testosterone levels. Thomas didn't do that. An athlete who suppresses their testosterone level to that extent for 3 years will likely lose their spot on the team because other athletes will win their spot. Even if they could keep their performance level, they'd have to start suppression before their freshmen season in order to swim in their senior season. If they don't start their transition before their freshmen year, they will run out of eligibility before the end of their NCAA career. Make no mistake, the NCAA has publicly said all the right things to appease the mob while making sure that door was closed, locked, glued, and nailed shut.

 

[One Brow]

It doesn't matter. The guidelines going forward require 3 years of documented sub-5 nmol/L testosterone levels. Thomas didn't do that. An athlete who suppresses their testosterone level to that extent for 3 years will likely lose their spot on the team because other athletes will win their spot.

All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.

Even if they could keep their performance level, they'd have to start suppression before their freshmen season in order to swim in their senior season. If they don't start their transition before their freshmen year, they will run out of eligibility before the end of their NCAA career. Make no mistake, the NCAA has publicly said all the right things to appease the mob while making sure that door was closed, locked, glued, and nailed shut.

I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?

 

[Gameface]

All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.


I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?

No, you don't get it. These college level transgender female athletes exist is because they couldn't win in the men's division so they became transgender so that they could pick up some of those sweet sweet college swimming trophies.

 

[One Brow]

No, you don't get it. These college level transgender female athletes exist is because they couldn't win in the men's division so they became transgender so that they could pick up some of those sweet sweet college swimming trophies.

It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?

 

[gandalfe]

It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?

Given that in many states, they're trying to effectively bar minors from transitioning, this will bar lots of kids from competition entirely.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

All the athletes have to meet those conditions. Why will only some of them be affected? Thomas was doing second place as a freshman in the men's division. She's just a good swimmer, in a year where there were no great swimmers in the 500m FR.

Lia Thomas won the women's 500 with a time of 4:33.24. Matthew States won the men's 500 with a time of 4:06.61. In the most recent Utah High School championship, Tanner Nelson from Bingham won the boys 500 in 4:30.06.

Lia Thomas wasn't anywhere near fast enough to qualify for the event on the men's side and that was with only one year of testosterone suppression. A future athlete trying to duplicate what Thomas has done this year would have to go on testosterone suppression while continuing to race against men for a full year, then continue with testosterone suppression while competing against men for another year, and then continue with testosterone suppression while competing against men for a third year. Only then could the future trans athlete race against women. It isn't all athletes needing to meet those conditions, only the trans athletes would have to go on the course of testosterone suppression while competing against, and being crushed by, other male athletes who do not suppress testosterone. A college swim team would be well within its rights to cut any male athlete that was too slow to win a spot on the men's team. The chances of a male athlete being among the fastest male swimmers on a men's college swim team through three years of testosterone suppression is zero.

I wonder if you noticed how your first sentence contradicted you third?

It doesn't. You don't understand the roadblock the NCAA has put up. The door appears open but it isn't.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Given that in many states, they're trying to effectively bar minors from transitioning, this will bar lots of kids from competition entirely.

Not at all. They are welcome to compete against other athlete who are their same biological sex.

 

[Deleted member 365]

It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?

The primary issue we have in our politics today is the sense of grievance. It’s highly effective. Few commenting about trans sports know anything about trans people or women’s sports. After the trans bathroom flop in North Carolina, bigots and well funded think tanks have successfully found a way to weaponize trans rights. Now granting trans women the right to participate in sports is “taking away” something from women. This can be used as an excuse to further attack the LGBT community until eventually Obergefell is overturned.

And this attitude permeates throughout our entire political conversation; immigration, teaching black history, social welfare net, etc are all “taking away” something from those who deserve it. Thus, creating an injustice that must be rectified. It prevents us from truly learning about issues and having an intelligent discussion. I don’t think it’s any accident that well funded lobbyists and think tanks are investing heavily in these culture war issues.

 

[Gameface]

It's so frustrating. He could have used a completely neutral terminology like "people will need to transition earlier than Thomas did to qualify". Instead, he's got to pull out "cheat", "door was closed", and "will not be able to do that" (the latter contradicting what they have been saying almost the entire thread). I just don't understand why someone would hate someone else that much. What can people do against such reckless hate?

It really is frustrating. I mean I'll say it again and again. The trans people I've met are very private, hesitant to go into public, not trying to make anyone uncomfortable because they exist. They're just trying to ****ing live. They aren't trans to prove a point or be cool.

People act like the trans community is out here attacking our society. They act like this is an imminent threat to their own existence.

I'd like to see, instead of all the stats showing that trans people are exceptionally disproportionately the targets of violence, some stats showing how often young transgender people commit crimes compared to the general population. My guess is that transgender youth, as a group, are either the lowest or amongst the lowest as far as their crime rate.

My daughter is 20 and has never touched alcohol or drugs. Her group of friends, ranging from 17-22 are all law abiding and not a single one uses drugs or drinks at all. I can't speak as strongly about them as I do my daughter, but when they come over they entertain themselves with video games, TV shows and chatting. As someone who had an extensive juvenile record and while I mostly avoided hard drugs but was involved with MJ, acid, etc. and alcohol from my early teenage years I can spot the signs of kids either being on drugs or looking to get somewhere that they can use them. These kids spend the night sometimes. None of them has a drug problem.

They aren't hurting anyone. They're just trying to live.

I know people see the sports issue and they're like, well that's just not fair. In Utah there are 4 transgender athletes, one is in female sports. Calm the **** down. We have time to figure this out and make it fair. Instead it's being used, very very successfully, to erode any gains the trans community had made and significantly degrade the amount of sympathy many people had for the trans community.

 

[LogGrad98]

Found this interesting...