Transgender and sports

[Beer]

So my wife randomly asked me the other night if I thought males transitioning to females or males that feel like they are female and are too young to officially start transitioning should be able to play womens sports.

I said no. It is not physically fair. Men are taller, stronger, have denser bones, more explosives muscles, and on and on ... scientifically there is no logical reason to allow it. Her main argument was feelings. These people already have it hard enough, so they should be allowed to play womens sports despite it completely screwing the hundred or so biological women who have been training in these sports to try and win.

It ended when I kept saying if I cut off my penis and start taking estrogen I'd still be much much stronger, taller, faster, more athletic, etc .... than her or 99.999% of women and she told me I was an *******.

I really really hate when the left tries to be the party of science until the science disagrees with their feelings. Then its out the door.

 

[gandalfe]

How many Olympic medals have been given to post-transition transgender women?

 

[JazzGal]

This is prejudice looking for an excuse using an issue that isn't a big issue. As pointed out, no transgender person has won an Olympic gold medal even though they are eligible to compete.

The vast majority of transgender persons are not elite athletes anymore than cis persons, thereby making the percentage so small as to not be necessary for widespread legislation. It can easily be handled on a case by case basis. Legislation such as Utah attempted to pass only has the real intent of making sure that transgenders know they are not welcome.

People should be more important than sports. Always.





Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Eminence]

In my opinion almost the entire point of womens sport is essentially to be an exclusionary lesser league to make it possible for cis-women to compete athletically. So I don't support trans people in those leagues.

It doesn't come up really at lower levels, but at higher levels (olympics) there's certainly been some discussion around what it means to be female. See all 3 of the 2016 800m Olympic medalists having XY karyotypes and the discussion there.

It's also a super small thing in the overall discussion around transgender folks and how we treat them as a society.

 

[bigb]

How many Olympic medals have been given to post-transition transgender women?

This is prejudice looking for an excuse using an issue that isn't a big issue. As pointed out, no transgender person has won an Olympic gold medal even though they are eligible to compete.

The vast majority of transgender persons are not elite athletes anymore than cis persons, thereby making the percentage so small as to not be necessary for widespread legislation. It can easily be handled on a case by case basis. Legislation such as Utah attempted to pass only has the real intent of making sure that transgenders know they are not welcome.

People should be more important than sports. Always.





Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

While I agree with both of these posts, I think you missed the point of the OP. He specifically mentioned trans who are too young to transition. I think the main point of this discussion centers around high school aged kids. I think, undoubtedly, a person living their lives as a male until 14 or so is going to be bigger, faster, stronger than someone living as a female that same life span.
For example, I grew up playing baseball. Once I got to high school, I knew I was no longer good enough. It was obvious. However, I could still hit and throw better than any girl on the softball team. One or two could have beaten me in a race from home to first, but not many.
To me, it’s not about the elite athletes. This discussion is about the high school kids already living in a hard time of life enduring something even harder.

 

[fishonjazz]

Ya I think most people consider me a "liberal" and a "lefty" or whatever label you want to use but I actually think that trans females shouldn't compete with females born females.
I got into an argument on facebook with a trans friend of mine. It didn't get too ugly as I eventually compromised my point of view to appease her since I could tell she was getting upset.

I have a daughter who is 4 years old. Now currently if you have a high school agreed daughter that was born female that is into sports and wants to play basketball or softball or soccer or whatever she will be competing almost entirely against other students that were also born female.

But I have some concern that by the time my daughter is in high school she might have to compete against students who were born male and are naturally bigger, stronger and faster that her which I think makes it much harder for.

The person I was arguing with on Facebook was upset with me because I told her that men are bigger, stronger and faster than women and disagreed and got mad and was like "oh, so you think you could beat Serena williams at tennis". And I was like **** no. I would get destroyed.
But roger federer could beat her easily.

I mean it's pretty obvious that men are simply naturally faster, bigger, and stronger than women. It's documented. Look up who has the fasted 100 yard dash times recorded. It's going to be a man. Hell, probably the top 1,000 hundred yard dash times are probably all by men. Maybe more than that.
Same thing for weightlifting records, discus, long jump, high jump, etc etc.

Imagine lebron playing in the wnba. It would be stupid. He literally would never lose and could average 200 points per game.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[gandalfe]

Ya I think most people consider me a "liberal" and a "lefty" or whatever label you want to use but I actually think that trans females shouldn't compete with females born females.
I got into an argument on facebook with a trans friend of mine. It didn't get too ugly as I eventually compromised my point of view to appease her since I could tell she was getting upset.

I have a daughter who is 4 years old. Now currently if you have a high school agreed daughter that was born female that is into sports and wants to play basketball or softball or soccer or whatever she will be competing almost entirely against other students that were also born female.

But I have some concern that by the time my daughter is in high school she might have to compete against students who were born male and are naturally bigger, stronger and faster that her which I think makes it much harder for.

The person I was arguing with on Facebook was upset with me because I told her that men are bigger, stronger and faster than women and disagreed and got mad and was like "oh, so you think you could beat Serena williams at tennis". And I was like **** no. I would get destroyed.
But roger federer could beat her easily.

I mean it's pretty obvious that men are simply naturally faster, bigger, and stronger than women. It's documented. Look up who has the fasted 100 yard dash times recorded. It's going to be a man. Hell, probably the top 1,000 hundred yard dash times are probably all by men. Maybe more than that.
Same thing for weightlifting records, discus, long jump, high jump, etc etc.

Imagine lebron playing in the wnba. It would be stupid. He literally would never lose and could average 200 points per game.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

My understanding is that transwomen actually lose a bunch of what's called "fast twitch" musculature - that's the kink that is important for strength, speed, explosiveness, due to the hormonal changes. Trans women actually have LESS testosterone than cis women. Within a couple of years of transitioning, a transwoman may have lost 15 lbs of fast twitch muscle. That's not nothing.

Pre-transition? Absolutely, they shouldn't compete against cis. But people keep talking about it like "they still have the bodies of men" which is absolutely not true.

 

[fishonjazz]

My understanding is that transwomen actually lose a bunch of what's called "fast twitch" musculature - that's the kink that is important for strength, speed, explosiveness, due to the hormonal changes. Trans women actually have LESS testosterone than cis women. Within a couple of years of transitioning, a transwoman may have lost 15 lbs of fast twitch muscle. That's not nothing.

Pre-transition? Absolutely, they shouldn't compete against cis. But people keep talking about it like "they still have the bodies of men" which is absolutely not true.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. Makes a big difference.

When I was arguing on Facebook about this I ended up saying that Im cool with allowing inclusion and then if problems arise like those I worry about then we could always make changes at that point.

I do wonder if less tosterone would be enough to even the playing field though as they would still have the frame of male. Like the transition doesn't make them shorter or cause their bones to shrink does it?
Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[The Thriller]

I wonder if all these people on social media up in arms over trans athletes are equally up in arms over the ****** treatment female NCAA basketball players have received for March Madness? My experience has been that those who cried the most about trans athletes these past few weeks never gave a **** and still don’t give a **** about women’s sports. It’s about sticking it to the LGBT community in this endless culture war here in America.

BTW, @JazzGal brought it up. Utah’s Legislature was about to pass an anti trans bill this session until silicon slopes killed it. They don’t want that bad PR similar to what NC went through a few years ago (cost them the all star game). Not a single (known) trans athlete competes in Utah’s prep sports. Clearly, is this really an issue or is this just another way to tell the LGBT community that they’re not welcome? The answer is pretty obvious.

I think it should be handled on a case to case basis. I also know that other states have resolved this issue years ago. I listened to an interview from a legislator in Virginia who explained that there’s a process for trans athletes to go through in order to compete in sports. That also involves testing, to ensure that there’s a level playing field. I think it’s helpful to understand that Utah... And America, don’t have to reinvent the wheel here.

The interview with Rep Danica Roem was incredibly insightful for those genuinely concerned with this issue:

“The Era of Big Government is Back.” | Crooked Media

crooked.com

 

[Beer]

This is prejudice looking for an excuse using an issue that isn't a big issue. As pointed out, no transgender person has won an Olympic gold medal even though they are eligible to compete.

The vast majority of transgender persons are not elite athletes anymore than cis persons, thereby making the percentage so small as to not be necessary for widespread legislation. It can easily be handled on a case by case basis. Legislation such as Utah attempted to pass only has the real intent of making sure that transgenders know they are not welcome.

People should be more important than sports. Always.





Sent from my moto z3 using JazzFanz mobile app

No, the question was not is there a large influx of transgenders participating in womens sports. I agree, very uncommon and not that big of a deal. But I still think it is unfair due to the biological differences between men and women. And they can still play sports, just with the sex they were born into.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is the dumbest arguing point transphobes make.

No one gives a ****ing **** about women's sports. Literally almost no one, but then you got transphones coming out the woodworks to cape for the fairness in women's sports.

Who gives a ****? This is going to affect .01% of the population. No one is going to transition from male to female just to win women's sports. There are going to be some outlier cases, but who really cares? So what, they got a physical advantage. You know who else has a physical advantage over everyone? Lebron James and we still let him play sports.

Just go back to not giving a **** about women's sports. It's way less offensive than trying to act like you care just to be transphobic.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The average republican/libertarian asshat thinks about women's sports 0% of the time other than to make jokes about it, but suddenly trans people are in the equation and it's "OMG are we really going to let this happen to our beloved past-time of women's sports?"

 

[The Thriller]

The average republican/libertarian asshat thinks about women's sports 0% of the time other than to make jokes about it, but suddenly trans people are in the equation and it's "OMG are we really going to let this happen to our beloved past-time of women's sports?"

Bingo. He gets it

 

[The Thriller]

“bUt TrAnS aRe GoNnA rUiN wOmEn’S sPoRtS!”





Why wasn’t a thread created to discuss the inequalities between the facilities, food, swag bags, and covid tests of the NCAA men’s teams vs Women’s? Cuz you know this is about protecting women’s sports and something something MAGA!

 

[Eminence]

@Cy and Thriller

You seem to be the most vocally in favor of trans individuals competing, so I ask you, what do you feel the purpose of having separate womens leagues is?

I stated earlier in the thread that my opinion is they are to allow folks assigned female a place to compete athletically.

 

[Zombie]

@Cy and Thriller

You seem to be the most vocally in favor of trans individuals competing, so I ask you, what do you feel the purpose of having separate womens leagues is?

I stated earlier in the thread that my opinion is they are to allow folks assigned female a place to compete athletically.

If there weren't women only leagues there basically wouldn't be any place for women in sports outside of rec leagues and the like because the number of men with superior physical abilities would easily crowd them out, being as there's roughly even numbers of both sexes present here on planet earth.

Trans folk make up a tiny percentage of the total population. Even if we were to grant that they have an overwhelming physical advantage (which is dubious) they simply don't have the numbers to push cis women out of sports the way that men do.

 

[The Thriller]

In addition to what @Zombie just said, there are currently zero I repeat zero trans athletes competing in Utah’a K-12 system. Considering the culture, I don’t think there’s going to be a rush of trans athletes either. What person would want to ostracize themselves like that? They know the culture.

Most/probably all trans people I know personally, don’t want to bring increased attention to themselves.

with all these factors considered, I don’t think women in Utah are at risk of being displaced in women’s sports.

 

[Gameface]

There is a common theme amongst issues that crop up regarding transgender people.

With the bathroom bills that were going around a few years ago the underlying concept was that people would use a transgender identity as cover so that they could enter women's rest rooms and somehow, once inside under the cover of their feminine identity, take advantage of young girls.

With the sports issue we see that theme being repainted in an attempt to make it seem more reasonable. But regardless, the concept seems to be that someone will use their feminine identity to insert their self into female competitive sports and scoop up all the trophies.

This can be traced back to the earliest reaction I can remember regarding transgender people. The bold statement is typically something along the lines of "There are only two genders." I think some people fail to realize that simple transgenderism doesn't challenge that concept. It is a concept worth challenging, but that's a subject that really has nothing to do with transgender people. The way I read that sort of statement, and tying it back into the bathroom issue and the sports issue is like this: People think that transgender identity is an attempt by a dishonest person to trick them into believing something that if they fall for it will make them look foolish. These people are just too smart to fall for it!

So at their core, these anti-transgender concepts are based on the idea that transgender people are lying about their gender. It is also almost always taking a transgender person's identity and the challenges surrounding that away from them and making it about someone else. The poor helpless girls who stand to be abused in the bathroom, or the hard working girls who will have all of their victories taken away from them by the athlete "pretending" to be female so that they can win all the competitions.

 

[fishonjazz]

In addition to what @Zombie just said, there are currently zero I repeat zero trans athletes competing in Utah’a K-12 system. Considering the culture, I don’t think there’s going to be a rush of trans athletes either. Most/probably all trans people I know personally, don’t want to bring increased attention to themselves. I don’t think women in Utah are at risk of being displaced in women’s sports.

So does this mean that fighting for inclusion in women's sports is kind of pointless?
Do trans females even want to play women's sports?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[The Thriller]

The greater issue (elephant in the room) are the glaring inequalities between men’s and women’s sports. But for some odd reason, these “advocates” for women’s sports don’t seem to give a **** about those inequalities and only “care” about women’s sports when it involves trans athletes. Weird, right?