Transgender and sports

[One Brow]

Athletic privilege? Haha ok. I'm talking about the differences in the athletic kids, not the kids that don't compete. You know, that ones that will actually be affected by these policies?

There, I acknowledge that the difference narrow, because you start pulling from a smaller part of the population. However, that also ruins the comparison to pee-wee.

The crux of the matter-- If you are biologically male, you will continue to have physiological advantages that don't fade, and some that do. Limits on testosterone is a flawed approach, even if that is the approach many bodies have taken.

Some advantages will be more meaningful that others, and that can vary sport to sport. It's one reason I'm content to let the sports bodies decide, rather than formulate some general rule.

Your last sentences tells me a lot about you. Eradicating transphobia is meant to create opportunity and and understanding for trans folk, and allow them to engage in a greater degree of self-determination without the threat of violence or inequity. Not put them at an advantage. An even keel.

I believe we agree that merely removing the threat of violence doesn't even get them close to an even keel.

However, pressuring cisgender, whether straight, gay, or other, including yourself evidently, into believing that they’re unable to express their lack of sexual attraction in trans people is somehow transphobic doesn’t contribute toward more autonomy for trans people. Rather, it takes away from the autonomy of others — something that is not only antithetical to the ideals of trans activism, but may also prove to have disastrous consequences for the community. I'm fully supportive of the trans community, and your view is more damaging than you realize.

I strongly disagree. To say I would not date a trans woman based solely on the basis of their being trans is absolutely transphobic.

Now, if you had asked me if I would data a woman with a lantern jaw, I would say that I don't find that feature attractive sexually. You could have asked about broad shoulders, large hands, or any other type of feature, and my answer might vary.

However, you didn't ask me any of that. You just said "a trans woman", without any specification of how attractive I would find their physical form. If you refuse to date someone you find physically attractive simply because they are trans, how is that not transphobia?

 

[Scat]

This thread reminds me of this which was written 40+ years ago.

 

[Scat]

Now, if you had asked me if I would data a woman with a lantern jaw, I would say that I don't find that feature attractive sexually. You could have asked about broad shoulders, large hands, or any other type of feature, and my answer might vary.

Do you find penises attractive sexually?

 

[One Brow]

Do you find penises attractive sexually?

Most people don't go walking around with exposed penises, and the question didn't specify a penis.

What's your point?

 

[LogGrad98]

Most people don't go walking around with exposed penises, and the question didn't specify a penis.

What's your point?

Speak for yourself.

 

[One Brow]

Speak for yourself.

I said most. An exception for LogGrad98 should always be understood.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't know if this has been discussed or not but here it is

Lia Thomas' teammates realizing 'they will never, ever be able to beat this person,' Penn swimmer's dad says

The father of a female swimmer at Penn said his daughter and many of her teammates are realizing they "will never make it" to the winner’s podium while transgender swimmer Lia Thomas is on their team.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Ron Mexico]

I don't know if this has been discussed or not but here it is

Lia Thomas' teammates realizing 'they will never, ever be able to beat this person,' Penn swimmer's dad says

The father of a female swimmer at Penn said his daughter and many of her teammates are realizing they "will never make it" to the winner’s podium while transgender swimmer Lia Thomas is on their team.

news.yahoo.com

They must feel like most athletes in their career have when someone dominate is their competition.

 

[One Brow]

I don't know if this has been discussed or not but here it is

Lia Thomas' teammates realizing 'they will never, ever be able to beat this person,' Penn swimmer's dad says

The father of a female swimmer at Penn said his daughter and many of her teammates are realizing they "will never make it" to the winner’s podium while transgender swimmer Lia Thomas is on their team.

news.yahoo.com

However, if their teammate were Katie Ledecky, who was even faster, would they feel the same way?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

However, if their teammate were Katie Ledecky, who was even faster, would they feel the same way?

Katie Ledecky is not faster than Lia Thomas. Ledecky's fastest 100 is 53.75. Thomas' PR is nearly 4 seconds faster. In the 200, Ledecky's fastest is 1:53.73 against Thomas' best of 1:41.93. Thomas is almost 12 seconds FASTER than Ledecky in the 200. That is a huge difference. Thomas is so much faster than Ledecky that Thomas could finish the race and eat a little snack or something while waiting for Ledecky to finally arrive. Ledecky only has an advantage at the longer distances where her form can best Thomas' raw power, the increased lung capacity biological males have over biological females, proportionally longer arms, proportionally bigger hands, and other biological advantages that come from being bathed in testosterone during puberty. Contrary to what you have been claiming, lungs don't get smaller and arms don't shrink in length when suppressing testosterone for a year after reaching adult size. Thomas has biological advantages on account of being biologically male.

 

[One Brow]

Katie Ledecky is not faster than Lia Thomas. Ledecky's fastest 100 is 53.75. Thomas' PR is nearly 4 seconds faster. In the 200, Ledecky's fastest is 1:53.73 against Thomas' best of 1:41.93. Thomas is almost 12 seconds FASTER than Ledecky in the 200. That is a huge difference.

Thomas also swims the 500 in 4:35.06, versus Ledecky in 4:24:06. You might say Ledecky is so much faster than Thomas that she could have finished the race and ate a snack while waiting for Thomas to arrive. In fact, at any length, Thomas is several seconds behind the record time.

Ledecky only has an advantage at the longer distances where her form can best Thomas' raw power, the increased lung capacity biological males have over biological females, proportionally longer arms, proportionally bigger hands, and other biological advantages that come from being bathed in testosterone during puberty.

NCAA Division I women's swimming and diving championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Simone Manual and Missy Franklin are laughing at your logic. Especially regarding breathing and the 50m-100m races, when your muscles barely have time to build up lactic acid. Those races are practically anaerobic (I was a backstroker for a short while).

Contrary to what you have been claiming, lungs don't get smaller and arms don't shrink in length when suppressing testosterone for a year after reaching adult size. Thomas has biological advantages on account of being biologically male.

Bigger lungs should give a better advantage at longer distances. Longer arms require bigger muscles to move through the water, and trans women lose those muscles over time.

Thomas probably does get a small advantage from bigger hands, but it doesn't seem to be dominant.

 

[Archie Moses]

@One Brow I haven't read the thread, but are you arguing transgenders in sports isn't an issue?