Nope. You're again presenting your own opinions as if they are shared by all Americans. There are tens of millions of people who don't want to go back to the old system.
Trumpcare makes things worse
- Thread starter The Thriller
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Nope. You're again presenting your own opinions as if they are shared by all Americans. There are tens of millions of people who don't want to go back to the old system.
factually, objectively, and materially wrong. Three national elections since this ACA was "passed" using thug politics to get it passed in the first place. Three times Republicans promising to repeal it have gained seats in our legislature and now the Presidency. Polls have shown as much as 70% of Americans want it fixed or replaced, it didn't even have public majority support when it was passed.
Americans don't want this, and it's time politicians listened, and it's time for the Republicans to do what they were elected to do.
You're hilarious. Out of those, only 14% actually want it repealed and not replaced, which is "going back to the old system". Most people would like to see it improved, not gone. But like I said, you like to imagine that your opinion is the default one shared by Americans. It almost never is.
Tens of millions? WOW! Minority should decide!
You are on one today. Can you NEVER be civil?
Red
Well-Known Member
https://theweek.com/speedreads/684472/poll-shows-58-percent-americans-want-keep-obamacare
"As Republicans face a cascade of criticism from fellow conservatives over their new American Health Care Act, a Monmouth University poll released Tuesday suggested a majority of Americans don't want Republicans' ObamaCare replacement plan anyway. The poll, conducted right before Congressional Republicans unveiled their long-awaited health-care proposal Monday night, revealed 58 percent of Americans don't want to dismantle the Affordable Care Act. Of that percentage, 51 percent said they want to keep the ACA and "work to improve it," while 7 percent said they "want to keep the ACA entirely intact."
On the other hand, just 39 percent want to see ObamaCare repealed. Thirty-one percent want the ACA repealed provided a replacement act is ready to go, while just 8 percent are comfortable with a repeal without a replacement.
Americans' tepid attitude towards the GOP's repeal and replace plan — coupled with criticism from Republican lawmakers and conservative advocacy groups — could pose problems for the American Health Care Act's passage. "People on opposite sides of this issue are strongly attached to their position on the ACA," said Patrick Murray, director of the Monmouth University Polling Institute. "Early reviews of the Republican draft plan suggest that it might not do enough to either retain or repeal it, which may leave all sides disappointed."
The poll was conducted by phone from March 2 to 5 among 801 adults. Its margin of error is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points."
"As Republicans face a cascade of criticism from fellow conservatives over their new American Health Care Act, a Monmouth University poll released Tuesday suggested a majority of Americans don't want Republicans' ObamaCare replacement plan anyway. The poll, conducted right before Congressional Republicans unveiled their long-awaited health-care proposal Monday night, revealed 58 percent of Americans don't want to dismantle the Affordable Care Act. Of that percentage, 51 percent said they want to keep the ACA and "work to improve it," while 7 percent said they "want to keep the ACA entirely intact."
On the other hand, just 39 percent want to see ObamaCare repealed. Thirty-one percent want the ACA repealed provided a replacement act is ready to go, while just 8 percent are comfortable with a repeal without a replacement.
Americans' tepid attitude towards the GOP's repeal and replace plan — coupled with criticism from Republican lawmakers and conservative advocacy groups — could pose problems for the American Health Care Act's passage. "People on opposite sides of this issue are strongly attached to their position on the ACA," said Patrick Murray, director of the Monmouth University Polling Institute. "Early reviews of the Republican draft plan suggest that it might not do enough to either retain or repeal it, which may leave all sides disappointed."
The poll was conducted by phone from March 2 to 5 among 801 adults. Its margin of error is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points."
Red
Well-Known Member
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/opinion/a-bill-so-bad-its-awesome.html?ref=opinion&_r=0
"..........Republicans seem to have been undone by their reverse-Robin-Hood urges. You can’t make something like Obamacare work without giving lower-income families enough support that insurance becomes affordable. But the modern G.O.P. always wants to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted; so the bill ends up throwing away the taxes on the rich that help pay for subsidies, and redirects the subsidies themselves away from those who need them to those who don’t.
Given the sick joke of a health plan, you might ask what happened to all those proclamations that Obamacare was a terrible, no good system that Republicans would immediately replace with something far better — not to mention Donald Trump’s promises of “insurance for everybody” and “great health care.”
But the answer, of course, is that they were all lying, all along — and they still are. On this, at least, Republican unity remains impressively intact."
"..........Republicans seem to have been undone by their reverse-Robin-Hood urges. You can’t make something like Obamacare work without giving lower-income families enough support that insurance becomes affordable. But the modern G.O.P. always wants to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted; so the bill ends up throwing away the taxes on the rich that help pay for subsidies, and redirects the subsidies themselves away from those who need them to those who don’t.
Given the sick joke of a health plan, you might ask what happened to all those proclamations that Obamacare was a terrible, no good system that Republicans would immediately replace with something far better — not to mention Donald Trump’s promises of “insurance for everybody” and “great health care.”
But the answer, of course, is that they were all lying, all along — and they still are. On this, at least, Republican unity remains impressively intact."
Boris, Siro is civil enough for me, one of the best on that score. If I deserve hyperbole, so be it. He, like Red and Green, feed from an alternate reality news feed I consider deliberate lies, or at best deliberate propaganda for new world agendas claimed to be "progress". I agree it's progress they seek.... progress for fascism. No, I don't need to invoke Hitler, who was not actually a fascist, really. Mussolini was the fascist. Hitler was a racist/statist tool beloved and supported in his rise to power by American bankers, and the Ford and Rockefeller industrialists chafing at American anti-Trust legislation, and the British royalty. Hitler was "The New World Order" of his day, very much comparable to the United Nations under Brit/Am control as it is today.
But hey, this is fun. I was asserting that Obamacare has never been supported by the American public. Here's a WSJ poll from 2009 that is particularly revealing:
https://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/18/wsjnbc-poll-shows-obamacare-fading/
Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican
Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican
In reporting a split public near 50%, they worried about what the numbers really meant when deliberately collecting a pre-set ratio of Democrat/Republican respondents.
"Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican"
In the world I live in, if you want to know what the public thinks, you don't need to pre-qualify your respondents by class. You go out and find people along some kind of representative RANDOM sampling method.
Good grief. The mainstream media has been lying all these years, pumping up the polls to push the agenda. Sure, you flood the news with pro-Obamacare garbage, you lie about what it is, and then you ask bias-based questions of people who know nothing about it in fact. But Americans have always opposed it's actual provisions. That's why they came out to vote against it three times.
The world Siro, Red, and Green wish to immerse themselves in is just the element of agenda pushers, media included, who want a certain vision of the world which will reduce none too soon to socialism single-payer no choice "health care".
But hey, this is fun. I was asserting that Obamacare has never been supported by the American public. Here's a WSJ poll from 2009 that is particularly revealing:
https://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/18/wsjnbc-poll-shows-obamacare-fading/
Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican
Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican
In reporting a split public near 50%, they worried about what the numbers really meant when deliberately collecting a pre-set ratio of Democrat/Republican respondents.
"Again, sampling adults rather than registered voters or likely voters would tend to skew polls more to the left — which makes this result even more compelling.* Their sample includes 30% Democrats and 22% Republicans, without leaners; with leaners, it’s 42% Democrats and 33% Republican"
In the world I live in, if you want to know what the public thinks, you don't need to pre-qualify your respondents by class. You go out and find people along some kind of representative RANDOM sampling method.
Good grief. The mainstream media has been lying all these years, pumping up the polls to push the agenda. Sure, you flood the news with pro-Obamacare garbage, you lie about what it is, and then you ask bias-based questions of people who know nothing about it in fact. But Americans have always opposed it's actual provisions. That's why they came out to vote against it three times.
The world Siro, Red, and Green wish to immerse themselves in is just the element of agenda pushers, media included, who want a certain vision of the world which will reduce none too soon to socialism single-payer no choice "health care".
LogGrad98
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We made extensive use of the German medical system. My son had some problems due to his epilepsy and they discovered my wife has hip dysplasia and probably has since birth.
The funny thing about that was in the states she has gone to at least a dozen doctors including specialists about her constant hip pain. They invariably tell her to lose weight and don't really do anything else, besides prescribe drugs for the pain, which she really does not tolerate well. In germany she brought it up again because their beds SUCK SUCK SUCK there (everything is a solid foam mattress unless you want to spend 3k euros), and the pain was getting much worse, and her doctor immediately sent her to a specialist. He ordered an MRI, which we scheduled for 2 weeks later, which would have likely been the case in the US too. She went in for the MRI and they decided to do a few more tests after they reviewed the results. It came back as hip dysplasia and they immediately started her on physical therapy. She went to PT for 3 months twice a week, and her pain was greatly diminished.
So we come back to the states. She has now been to 3 different doctors here trying to get her hip dysplasia treated. First, they didn't want to do the testing and told her, again, to lose weight (yeah she has weight to lose, but not some 600 pound life kind of thing, good hell). Finally they ordered an MRI. Then they wanted to do physical therapy but our insurance told us they would only cover it if the doctor said it was debilitating. It isn't, so they refused. We appealed and they approved 10 visits total. They also denied a request for surgery since it isn't full-on debilitating. The fight with now 2 different insurance companies has taken the better part of a year and she is back to taking medication for the pain instead of getting help for it.
The kicker? In Germany they just did what the doctor recommended. The total cost of her visits and tests and treatments, out of pocket anyway, was just under 500 euros, which included in the end 2 MRI, an overnight stay in the hospital for observation and another kind of sleep test, as well as some minor medication and full PT for 3 months. Here she hasn't received ANY treatment yet, other than drugs, and it has cost us over $3000 just for the insurance to say they won't pay for the treatment that we already know will work (gotta pay that mother****ing deductible first, right?), so we are looking at another $1000 for PT as we negotiated that with the PT provider ourselves since we pay it out of pocket. That is for an anticipated 6 months of treatment, once or twice a week as needed. A decent rate really for that many visits, but all on our own dime.
Verdict? Absolute ridiculous *********.
I'm quite different ideologically from Red and Green (who are not that similar to one another either). My preferable future is a largely ungoverned humanity, with A.I. taking care of the administration of any macro-systems we decide to collaboratively set up. I doubt either of them even think about such things. I'm also no fan of the current unaccountable-elites-know-best system, but I don't see any meaningful alternative from the ignoramus Trump support base, and other new-right (or populist or alt-right or whatever) movements.
As for the numbers, even with polling bias, the fact remains, most people DON'T want to go back to the old system. And it's not just a couple of percentage points.
I don't understand why sampling adults is inherently left leaning. As far as I understand, the split is basically 50-50 between Reps and Dems, with slightly more people leaning Republican.
I also don't understand why "choice" should be the only criterion for how to proceed. I'd happily give up my plethora of choices if it meant cheaper healthcare for everyone.
I like people who can calmly explain their views as Siro does. Worth considering those views.
NOBODY is like me, and I know what I'd do if someone showed up here more or less being "ME"..... I'd change a lot of stuff and keep on being different from everybody.
In my future, I want online medical guidance and personal access to diagnostic equipment at some sort of private voluntary healthcare cooperative paid for by members. In parallel, I want private specialist clinics who will take patients on their own initiative.... you call up, you get the appointment, you go in, and you pay for whatever you ask for.
Such private outfits should have hospital privileges where they can take their patients in as needed, again paid for by the patients. Oh, I don't mind insurance "cooperatives". Amazing thing is, some of these have sprung up under Obamacare, like "Medishare", but there are others. I count that as paid for by the patient.
In the future of those who don't have the knowledge or initiative or whatever, I would consider it a bargain for the State (not the Feds) to subsidize insurance for the indigent or high risk. I would like to see the interstate insurance business accepted by states on their own initiative "mutual compact" and the states use some market share bargaining power to keep rates reasonable.
Healthcare is not a federal prerogative under our Constitution, and even Trump doesn't get that, yet. Ryan's plan is termed RINOcare by Mark Levin, a cute alphabetic for "Repeal In Name Only" as well as "Republican in Name Only".
Unfortunately, not many people see things as I do on this issue. I wouldn't mind of more did. But I'd keep thinking to find something better.
Trump, BTW, is actually a smart dude. IQ something like 160. Just not a polished politician or economists or public relations pro. I heard he can build stuff, and get people to do what he directs. Business management is a skill set we could well benefit from in our federal govt.
NOBODY is like me, and I know what I'd do if someone showed up here more or less being "ME"..... I'd change a lot of stuff and keep on being different from everybody.
In my future, I want online medical guidance and personal access to diagnostic equipment at some sort of private voluntary healthcare cooperative paid for by members. In parallel, I want private specialist clinics who will take patients on their own initiative.... you call up, you get the appointment, you go in, and you pay for whatever you ask for.
Such private outfits should have hospital privileges where they can take their patients in as needed, again paid for by the patients. Oh, I don't mind insurance "cooperatives". Amazing thing is, some of these have sprung up under Obamacare, like "Medishare", but there are others. I count that as paid for by the patient.
In the future of those who don't have the knowledge or initiative or whatever, I would consider it a bargain for the State (not the Feds) to subsidize insurance for the indigent or high risk. I would like to see the interstate insurance business accepted by states on their own initiative "mutual compact" and the states use some market share bargaining power to keep rates reasonable.
Healthcare is not a federal prerogative under our Constitution, and even Trump doesn't get that, yet. Ryan's plan is termed RINOcare by Mark Levin, a cute alphabetic for "Repeal In Name Only" as well as "Republican in Name Only".
Unfortunately, not many people see things as I do on this issue. I wouldn't mind of more did. But I'd keep thinking to find something better.
Trump, BTW, is actually a smart dude. IQ something like 160. Just not a polished politician or economists or public relations pro. I heard he can build stuff, and get people to do what he directs. Business management is a skill set we could well benefit from in our federal govt.
green
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd call Trump smart.
Apparently his wealth would be more had he just left it alone. Also, I'd love to see his tax returns. I'd bet not taxes paid in 20 years due to business losses just screams genius.
Everything about him screams silver spoon and not much else.
Apparently his wealth would be more had he just left it alone. Also, I'd love to see his tax returns. I'd bet not taxes paid in 20 years due to business losses just screams genius.
Everything about him screams silver spoon and not much else.
green
Well-Known Member
Read these myths about Trump:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...33a4d31bcc8_story.html?utm_term=.00a16bb30ab9
They cover his wealth, how he compares to Buffett, and how he did in school.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...33a4d31bcc8_story.html?utm_term=.00a16bb30ab9
They cover his wealth, how he compares to Buffett, and how he did in school.
DutchJazzer
Banned
nope:
stats:
-a net loss of 1,042 state and federal Democratic posts, including congressional and state legislative seats, governorships and the presidency.
-Democratic U.S. Senate seats fell from 55 to 46. Their share of the House plummeted from 256 seats to 194.
-Democratic governerships also became a rarity during this eight-year period, slipping from 28 to 16.
-The Obama years, which saw the rise of the Tea Party as well as a new movement form around Trump that is still being defined, coincided with a loss of 958 state legislative seats for Democrats.
the settled science proves it!
sooo do what the left expect of us when science is settled. shut up or go to jail!
DutchJazzer
Banned
fair enough, so you support the implementation of a German clone into the USA. and force everybody into it?
D
Deleted member 848
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Americans truly have no idea how much they're getting ****ed over until you leave the system.
Hearing Paul Ryan talk about "choice" is laughable and he knows it & if there's a hell I honestly hope he burns in it. Poor people will die because of his rhetoric.
LogGrad98
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Yes and no. The German system is a damn sight better than the US system, but it is far from perfect. I will try to write a longer response later.
DutchJazzer
Banned
kewl,
i have lil experience with the dutch system, mostly boxing related injuries(few broken noses).
i am relatively healthy only had a fungal infection. but other then that everything is sports related.
my point being me and my finance never really had to go in for some serious injury. i try to live healthy but i could get hit tomorrow by a truck or god forbid cancer.
but i live for 14 years in Netherlands. i used to pay in my first year about 65 euros a month now it is up to 105(for a lesser package than the 65 one).
so lets say i paid on average 80-85 a month. for 14 years that comes out to 13440 euros(its a lil more btw)! for something i have not used had to pay. so for a 2 person household it comes out to 27000 in 14 years(and rising!)
wish I had that money in a health savings account minus a 10-20 euro premium for catastrophic health insurance i would be better off!
meanwhile while i was there for the first few years i used to live in a dorm, there was this guy who drank himself SICK. literally he had to be hospitalized 3 times for thwoing up blood ****ing his liver up. with the bills totalling into the tens of thousand of euros all paid for. now he jokes about that.
another obese friend of mine has to go to doctor monthly god only knows what the bills for those are.
they have 0 consequences for their behavior. and i am not getting rewarded for living a healthy live.
i would like to step out of this ****
This is roughly $14,500. I can guarantee you that Americans would KILL to pay barely more than $1,000/year each for comprehensive healthcare if they understood that was something on the table. I am pretty healthy and have only gone in for annual maintenance kind of stuff. Plus I'm on an employer-sponsored group plan and my wife is separately employed and can get her own health insurance. Private costs are still over $300 month. And I'm someone who's got it pretty good.
Healthcare is fundamentally a broken market and deregulation of the industry cannot fix it. Ultimately hospitals and doctors do not and likely will not have a price board saying what they charge for most services in advance. Price is the ultimate market signal. It dictates who buys what and where and is the primary competition determiner. Price is also virtually irrelevant when you need medical care right now. Competition in a life or death situation doesn't really exist and probably never will.
Free market orthodoxy with respect to health care is closer to a religious belief than a true policy prescription. It belies fundamental misunderstandings of markets and human behavior.
so you are ok with corporate welfare, aka giant tax breaks?