fishonjazz
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You don't understand the concept of tanking.
That's ok
Utah Jazz in desperate need of long term coaching solution
- Thread starter [size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
- Start date
That's ok
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
When it comes to building a team, there's really basically three different methods that teams employ.
Power building - Miami and Houston are good examples of this. Miami had one star, and aggressively went about creating the necessary cap space and envirionment to add two more. Houston had no star players and within a short span added Asik, Lin, Harden and Howard - then tried to get Anthony or Bosh.
Reloading - This is what the Jazz did after they traded DWill. They had two solid bigs (Jefferson and Millsap) that they added veterans to the lineup to try to contend before they bottomed out. This effort typically leads to becoming a treadmill team. Case in point. . . Miami after LeBron left.
Tanking - This is what happens when a team lets their veteran talents go and either "go young" like the Jazz/76ers or put together a roster that simply isn't very good - like the Cavs the past 4 years or the Lakers this year.
Cleveland was a tanking team that suddenly shifted into Power Building this offseason. When the Jazz added Al Jefferson, that would have been a Power Building move - while he wasn't an All-Star, he was a cusp player with the offensive potential to get there paired with DWill and Millsap. Unfortunately that team blew up. Sloan retired. DWill was traded and the Jazz needed to decide what to do A.D. (After Deron) They probably should have tanked at that point. Traded Jefferson and Millsap while they had high value and started stockpiling assets and building around developing the young guys. That didn't happen. They re-upped Ty Corbin. Put the young guys on the bench and reloaded around Jefferson/Millsap. Jazz were a treadmill team at best - and being stuck in the West meant that they couldn't get a good draft pick because all the east teams would have worse records. In comes DL. He looks at where the team is vs. where it could be and decides to blow it up. The Jazz decided to go full-blown tank. Since then, they've committed (financially and in playing time) to building around Hayward, Favors, Kanter and Burks. They've added promising young players in Gobert, Exum, Hood and Burke. This is a rebuild - not a reload. There's a huge difference between the two. Now we just need to see if the guys they are building around have the juice to contend, or if they'll need to make a blockbuster move or two to power build and become relevant again.
Jazz Insider
Banned
There isn't a single coach on the planet that can win in this league without mgmt spending to bring in talent. Until the commitment to winning long-term is made, a long-term coach is impossible. Plus, it's an easy move for mgmt to 'fire' the coach and appeal to the fanbase by appearing to actually do something to improve the team. This is by design. It's only a matter of time until Snyder is fired, to much glee of JazzFanz.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
To much glee of Jazz Insider, I think. There are very few who have the negative view that you do. Maybe franklin or size huge boobs or whatever his name is now (Jazz Insider?). The rest can actually see the makings of a decent team starting to come together.
How long did it take Chicago to rebuild after Jordan left? How about Boston? They won a championship post-Bird (2008) but have been rebuilding since. Lakers won in 2010. How many years do you think it will take them to get back? Only SA has been a constant. And that is due to getting lucky enough to add a franchise player (Duncan) to an already strong team that had some injuries. Granted, they have also drafted very well since then. No doubt the best FO in history.
Sure, it would be nice to have superstars demand to be traded to the Jazz. Or group together to sign with Utah as FA's. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Doesn't matter who the owner or coach is. Rebuilds don't happen in one year. Retools can be done rather rapidly, but Utah tried that and failed. Ask Brooklyn how their "retool" went. Same with New York. Miserable failures. We're now in year #2 of a true rebuild. Fortunately some of the pieces WERE put in place under KOC so that should speed it up some. It's not like the Jazz are replacing their entire roster.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
Great post. Look at where Boston is right now. They pretty much started rebuilding the same year that the Jazz did by trading Doc, Garnett and Pierce and then hiring Brad Stevens. They just had to trade Rondo, haven't drafted any real difference makers yet and look to be way further behind than the Jazz are. At least the Kazz had Hayward, Favors, Kanter and Burks before DL got here.
I feel a lot better about where the Jazz are right now than I would if I were a fan of Boston, New York or Brooklyn. I like how the Jazz are going about their business better than I would if I were a Philadelphia fan. The only team that i think is rebuilding in the same manner is Minnesota. They're going to be pretty good before people know it. They've drafted well, got a good return on Kevin Love and are committed to the youth movement.
fishonjazz
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@ jazz insider.
You seem to think jazz management won't spend.
Didn't they just dole out some big bucks to favors, Burks, and Hayward? Alot of people were complaining that we overpaid for booker. I think we purchased the pick that ended up being gobert.
The video screens and sound system at esa were nice and expensive I bet
You seem to think jazz management won't spend.
Didn't they just dole out some big bucks to favors, Burks, and Hayward? Alot of people were complaining that we overpaid for booker. I think we purchased the pick that ended up being gobert.
The video screens and sound system at esa were nice and expensive I bet
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
What you're seeing here is mega-rich guy dies and leaves inheritance to children who have to pay 50 % death taxes after Gail goes (heaven forbid) and then split it five ways. They all want to be mega rich guy too so they are treating like business to maximize profit.
Problem is losing is cutting revenue hard and they are getting seriously concerned. I hear on the inside they refer to this as Green Seat Syndrome, and main reason they matched max Hayward, overpaid Burks, and plan on extending Enes next summer for around 15,000,000. They want to "show" fans they willing to spend but also hit that sweat spot where they claim little cap room but be high enough to not get an MLE that could put them 6-7 million over the cap. Instead they stay 4-5 million under and sell rebuild, growth and preserve cap space to fans. I also hear they read social media to find out what will sell easiest to customers and this was co census strategy.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
Milwaukee sold for $600 million before the Clippers sold for $2 billion. I think that the Jazz would sell somewhere in between the two. I'd be shocked if they weren't worth more than the Bucks.
With that said, the way to make the most money is to sell the team.
Hotdog
Well-Known Member
It would be stupid to sell the team. Business is great in the NBA, and looks to continue that for a long time. Having an NBA team over all these years was a great investment for the Miller Family.
Once you sell, then what? You don't want to be holding all that cash. Cash isn't where you want be. You want investments.
Cash is going down in value, and NBA teams continue to move up in value.
Once you sell, then what? You don't want to be holding all that cash. Cash isn't where you want be. You want investments.
Cash is going down in value, and NBA teams continue to move up in value.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size];959549 said:
Most of that is crap, other than the Millers running the team as a business, which it is. Utah has paid the LT when the team had a chance at competing for a title, and Larry was gone when that happened. It should be obvious why Utah's payroll is where it is right now, and it should also be obvious that in the next few years, they will be spending more and more. Utah has shown a commitment to keeping their players, even in cases where they are risking an overpay. If Utah was running things the way Sterling used to run the Clippers, you don't throw that kind of money they threw at Gordon and Alec. When they matched Gordon, I would have agreed that it was mostly about selling tickets, but with the way Gordon has played, it's safe to say it was a legitimate decision in building the team. Burks extension, on the other hand, had nothing to do with ticket sales. That was simply a gamble they took in hopes Burks will develop, but right now, he does very little to sell tickets.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't lump Boston in with Brooklyn and NY. Boston is actually set up for a nice rebuild, and now that they have committed by trading Rondo, they will be in good shape sooner than later. They have 8 1sts in the next 4 years, including 3 consecutive unprotected picks from Brooklyn. The one in the middle is just rights to swap, so if Boston is worse, it's only 2, but if Boston is better that year, it will result in 3 consecutive Brooklyn picks while giving up a lesser first the 2nd year. I'm very jealous. No doubt Danny will be looking to pull off something like he did with KG/Allen. He may have to wait a year or two for the right opportunity, but he is loaded for bear as of now.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Draft picks are nice, but 50% of 1st-rounders don't pan out as you had hoped. Those unprotected firsts from Brooklyn will likely be out of the lottery. You're right, though. Ainge will probably look to trade for an all-star from a rebuilding team.
But I like the Jazz' situation.
Bigs: Favors is a fringe all-star. Gobert could soon be a DPOY candidate. Kanter will be a good backup.
Wings: Hayward is putting up all-star stats. Burks is improving in terms of his range. And he's playing on a bad shoulder. Hood can back up either position. I guarantee he'll eventually be Korver-lite. There's no way he won't shoot around 40% on his 3's with the form he has.
PG's: ok, some concern here. Still too soon to project for Exum. Burke looks like a backup at best. Neto...who knows? May need to sign or trade for a veteran.
Should add a top-10 pick this season.
Utah has some serious assets - and most have already shown good value, unlike an uncertain draft pick.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
Death taxes may force them to. Until then it is best for the family to not sell at top dollar and in fact try to suppress value of team for tax purposes. They are trying to keep revenue and costs in that sweet spot where seats are empty not too empty and team loses but not too many losses.
This team cannot be good until after Gail dies or millers will be forced to sell by Obama's thugs.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
You are not paying attention. Greg Miller said he would.never pay the luxury tax. Why? Same reason his father never paid LT until after he was mega-rich and Jazz became his hobby horse.
I never said Burks was about selling tickets. Why do you not quote where I said so. I said all contracts combined are a PR move to fool fans to think Jazz will spend when actually they are suppressing spending.
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]
Banned
LLF. Trey is JLIII and Favors is all star.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
[size/HUGE] boobs [/size];959774 said:
You are confused. Larry said he would never pay the tax, and he never did. Utah paid the LT twice, and it happened under Greg, right after he took over.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Semantics. Larry H. said he would pay the luxury tax if the Jazz were contenders, but they wouldn't be long-term tax payers. And the contracts were signed, particularly the match for Millsap when Larry H. still owned the team. I have no doubt Greg would likely be willing to pay the tax one year if contracts were to overlap. For example, matching an offer for Gobert but then the next year having Favors or Kanter come off the books. Jazz will never be repeat offenders; Greg doesn't sell enough Toyotas to match the deep pockets of other owners.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
You are also confused.
Like I said, Utah paid the tax twice, and it was Greg who paid it, not Larry. They paid 3.1 million in 09-10, and then paid 4.9 million in 10-11. Larry said for years that he would never pay the tax, and although he eventually lightened up on that stance, he wasn't around when Utah paid it.