What Became of Player Development?


Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
And why should we get Frank Jackson early? If he loves Utah so much, get him when he's developed and ready. You dont waste time developing him. That's what the Lakers do because 90% of the NBA wants to live in LA.
 


jom2003

Well-Known Member
It takes a lot to win a championship, and it's not that the Jazz aren't doing enough on the margins. It's also hilarious to pull the championship card when whining about Frank Jackson and Torey Craig and downplaying Gobert and Mitchell. Not to mention the several other role players the Jazz have gotten on the margins. The majority of this roster is from the margins.

No team has won a championship simply by doing well on the margins. The only area the Jazz have done well is on the margins and finding/developing underrated talent. Like I said, the FO has several valid criticisms. But their ability to scout/develop is definitely not one of them. If the Jazz aren't good at this, you can't name another team in the league that is good.
You kept saying we built a team from the margins like if it's worth some kind of achievement award and no other teams are doing it.

How else do you think a good team is built upon? We are not some big market teams where big name superstars will just volunteer to join us so our management are PAID to do one job, that is to build a team with good scouting and player development. So they are just doing their jobs as far as i'm concerned. Anything less than that would mean their jobs on the line.

Just look at the marginal moves made by Denver(who just scooped Shaq btw), Clippers, Lakers, Bucks in their pursue for a title. Or even the superNets. Despite currently sitting on Durant/Irving/Harden, it didn't stop them from working around the margins to try out guys Bruce Brown and Claxton. And I believe they just signed Mike James to a ten day.

Even though Mithcell/Rudy had been great find by the management, it's still just the bare minimum given the number of opportunities they've had(FA, trades. draft picks, etc) to acquire franchise players since 2013.

During that same timespan, Suns GM found Booker, Kings GM found Fox, Wolves GM found Lavine, Lakers GM got Randle. All proven to be franchise players later on, but that didn't prevent their GMs from getting fired.

And I can even argue that they were forced to work around the margins more than other teams because they screwed up their draft picks way too often which left them with little to no choice. They put themselves in this position. I mean how can you look at guys like Burke, Dante, Lyles and tell me "you can't name another team in the league that is good"? And those are only the lotto guys, don't even get me started on Tony Bradley and Udoka......

I also like how you kept bragging about us getting role players on the margins, while downplaying guys like Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson, who represent the very definition of the type of player you work around the margins in order to get.

Torrey Craig has been a key part of Denver rotation during their deep playoff run last season and now doing it again for the Suns. Just watch him putting up 18+10 a couple of nights ago and making some important stops during crucial possessions to help the Suns escape OKC with a 3pt victory. Had we have a guy like Craig we'd have secured the W against the Lakers and Minny. And what did the Suns give up to pick him up again?

You think i'm kidding when i said guys like Royce and Niang are easy to come by? Getting guys on the margin happen in this league almost every day so there's nothing to brag about my friend.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
Wow, it's crazy how there are so many good players on the Pistons putting up these great stats and they are still in the worst team in the NBA.
I mean, don't even need to watch any other pistons game. just watch the two games they played against us you know they are just in it for the tank. They literally sit out their entire starting lineup every other game just so they don't beat any teams by accident.

As good as Frank Jackson has been playing, he doesn't have the ability to singlehandedly carry a team filled with scrubs to victory. Surprise surprise.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
You kept saying we built a team from the margins like if it's worth some kind of achievement award and no other teams are doing it.

How else do you think a good team is built upon? We are not some big market teams where big name superstars will just volunteer to join us so our management are PAID to do one job, that is to build a team with good scouting and player development. So they are just doing their jobs as far as i'm concerned. Anything less than that would mean their jobs on the line.

Just look at the marginal moves made by Denver(who just scooped Shaq btw), Clippers, Lakers, Bucks in their pursue for a title. Or even the superNets. Despite currently sitting on Durant/Irving/Harden, it didn't stop them from working around the margins to try out guys Bruce Brown and Claxton. And I believe they just signed Mike James to a ten day.

Even though Mithcell/Rudy had been great find by the management, it's still just the bare minimum given the number of opportunities they've had(FA, trades. draft picks, etc) to acquire franchise players since 2013.

During that same timespan, Suns GM found Booker, Kings GM found Fox, Wolves GM found Lavine, Lakers GM got Randle. All proven to be franchise players later on, but that didn't prevent their GMs from getting fired.

And I can even argue that they were forced to work around the margins more than other teams because they screwed up their draft picks way too often which left them with little to no choice. They put themselves in this position. I mean how can you look at guys like Burke, Dante, Lyles and tell me "you can't name another team in the league that is good"? And those are only the lotto guys, don't even get me started on Tony Bradley and Udoka......

I also like how you kept bragging about us getting role players on the margins, while downplaying guys like Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson, who represent the very definition of the type of player you work around the margins in order to get.

Torrey Craig has been a key part of Denver rotation during their deep playoff run last season and now doing it again for the Suns. Just watch him putting up 18+10 a couple of nights ago and making some important stops during crucial possessions to help the Suns escape OKC with a 3pt victory. Had we have a guy like Craig we'd have secured the W against the Lakers and Minny. And what did the Suns give up to pick him up again?

You think i'm kidding when i said guys like Royce and Niang are easy to come by? Getting guys on the margin happen in this league almost every day so there's nothing to brag about my friend.

You act as if a championship is a given and anything else is a sign of a poor FO. Why is the expectation of a small market team to win a championship? Because they made enough good moves on the margin that it's a slight possibility? Making moves on the margin is the only reason the Jazz are good.

It's a ridiculous standard you're putting on here. I can't even believe you're mentioning "marginal" moves made by BKN and LAL and comparing that to what the Jazz have done. Caruso and Bruce Brown are nice players. So are freaking Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. Did it ever occur to you that the Jazz FO hung around while the other FO's got fired because those teams stink and the Jazz do not?

I'm downplaying Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson because they are not Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. Those are players acquired on the margins. Same goes for Ingles, O'Neale, Clarkson, and Niang. That's why the Jazz are good. I find it completely ridiculous that you are using Torrey Craig and his accomplishments as your argument. Do you need me to list out what accomplishments Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell have?

And if you want to downplay Royce and Niang like it happens about everyday, why is such a horrible thing that they missed out on Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson? How can moves like Torey Craig and Frank Jackson mean something, but the other Jazz moves besides the two all stars they acquired don't? This is seriously one of the worst lines of logic I have ever seen and it's not even worth discussing at this point. Torrey Craig/Frank Jackson show incompetence, meanwhile Ingles/Niang/O'Neale/Clarkson are meaningless and getting Gobert + Mitchell is the bare minimum.

Torrey ****ing Craig and Rudy Gobert. What a joke this conversation is.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
And why should we get Frank Jackson early? If he loves Utah so much, get him when he's developed and ready. You dont waste time developing him. That's what the Lakers do because 90% of the NBA wants to live in LA.
Besides sitting out his rookie season due to injuries, Jackson is actually one of the few prospects who are ready for NBA actions from day one. He scored 14pt on the third NBA game he's ever played. And had scored 25 and 23 during his Rookie season. Both would be career highs for Niang, Oni, Morgan, Forrest or Brantley.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
You act as if a championship is a given and anything else is a sign of a poor FO. Why is the expectation of a small market team to win a championship? Because they made enough good moves on the margin that it's a slight possibility? Making moves on the margin is the only reason the Jazz are good.

It's a ridiculous standard you're putting on here. I can't even believe you're mentioning "marginal" moves made by BKN and LAL and comparing that to what the Jazz have done. Caruso and Bruce Brown are nice players. So are freaking Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. Did it ever occur to you that the Jazz FO hung around while the other FO's got fired because those teams stink and the Jazz do not?

I'm downplaying Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson because they are not Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. Those are players acquired on the margins. Same goes for Ingles, O'Neale, Clarkson, and Niang. That's why the Jazz are good. I find it completely ridiculous that you are using Torrey Craig and his accomplishments as your argument. Do you need me to list out what accomplishments Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell have?

And if you want to downplay Royce and Niang like it happens about everyday, why is such a horrible thing that they missed out on Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson? How can moves like Torey Craig and Frank Jackson mean something, but the other Jazz moves besides the two all stars they acquired don't? This is seriously one of the worst lines of logic I have ever seen and it's not even worth discussing at this point. Torrey Craig/Frank Jackson show incompetence, meanwhile Ingles/Niang/O'Neale/Clarkson are meaningless and getting Gobert + Mitchell is the bare minimum.

Torrey ****ing Craig and Rudy Gobert. What a joke this conversation is.
See. Here's where the disconnect is. You thinking Rudy/DM as some kind of once in a generation type of talents that automatically certifies any FO for finding them.

But you know what the truth is? The league don't even regard them as top 15 players in this league. No one is even giving them the respect despite holding the no.1 seed for most of the season. And what did we do in response? Getting swept by Minny, losing the no.1 seed and proving the doubters right.

I mean it's Rudy Gobert people. The highest paid center ever who can't even make a post move in the paint. I love Rudy. I love his underdog mentality. I love his work ethics and leaderships. But we have to be honest here. Rudy/Mithcell are stars. Not superstars. Not someone who will ever end up on top of any list for MVP candidates. Finding regular stars who you can build a good team around is worth some praises and recognition, but it's still nothing out of extraordinary. That's why i mentioned Randle, Fox, Booker, Lavine. But you are acting like it is.

I really want to agree with you. I really do. But there is Bucks finding Giannis. Nuggets finding Jokic. Warriors finding Curry. And between the matter of these finds and us finding Rudy/Mithcell, there is a distinct difference......

So "marginal moves is the only reason why the Jazz are good"? I wouldn't say that. That'd be going way too extreme.

But it is a BIG reason why we are where we are right now. Despite underwhelming performances in the draft and FAs, we managed to work around the margins to build a winning team around Rudy/Mitchell, whereas Kings failed to build one around Fox, Lakers failed to build one around Randle(and now the Knicks do), Suns failed to build one around Booker(and now they do under their new management)......you get the idea.

Rudy/Mithchell by themselves aren't good enough to push us to the top. But if we can put together a solid supporting cast around them, we can see where it takes us. And by "solid" i mean a bit more than just Royce, Niang, Oni, etc.
 
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KqWIN

Well-Known Member
See. Here's where the disconnect is. You thinking Rudy/DM as some kind of once in a generation type of talents that automatically certifies any FO for finding them.

But you know what the truth is? The league don't even regard them as top 15 players in this league. No one is even giving them the respect despite holding the no.1 seed for most of the season. And what did we do in response? Getting swept by Minny, losing the no.1 seed and proving the doubters right.

I mean it's Rudy Gobert people. The highest paid center ever who can't even make a post move in the paint. I love Rudy. I love his underdog mentality. I love his work ethics and leaderships. But we have to be honest here. Rudy/Mithcell are stars. Not superstars. Not someone who will ever end up on top of any list for MVP candidates. Finding regular stars who you can build a good team around is worth some praises and recognition, but it's still nothing out of extraordinary. That's why i mentioned Randle, Fox, Booker, Lavine. But you are acting like it is.

I really want to agree with you. I really do. But there is Bucks finding Giannis. Nuggets finding Jokic. Warriors finding Curry. And between the matter of these finds and us finding Rudy/Mithcell, there is a distinct difference......

So "marginal moves is the only reason why the Jazz are good"? I wouldn't say that. That'd be going way too extreme.

But it is a BIG reason why we are where we are right now. Despite underwhelming performances in the draft and FAs, we managed to work around the margins to build a winning team around Rudy/Mitchell, whereas Kings failed to build one around Fox, Lakers failed to build one around Randle(and now the Knicks do), Suns failed to build one around Booker(and now they do under their new management)......you get the idea.

Rudy/Mithchell by themselves aren't good enough to push us to the top. But if we can put together a solid supporting cast around them, we can see where it takes us. And by "solid" i mean a bit more than just Royce, Niang, Oni, etc.

I never said that they are generational talents. I said they are different from Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson. If the standard is getting Jokic, Giannis, Curry...yeah I'd agree they didn't a player like that. That's a crazy standard to live up to. A championship should never be the expectation. Half the league has never won a championship. The fact that the Jazz are in a position to compete for a championship almost entirely from the margins is a testament to how good they've been in that area. There are certainly reasons why the Jazz aren't as good as they could be...but as far as scouting/developing, the Jazz have gotten more out of that than anyone can reasonably expect.

The ridiculousness in this conversation is whining about Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson, as if those are the players who win championships and show competence while chalking up Gobert, Mitchell, and the rest of the players as bare minimum. Insanity.
 

MT Steve

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I don't get how somebody can say we can't give the FO credit for Mitchell/Gobert because they aren't top 15 players, and in the same post say we have failed to build a solid supporting cast around them.

If both of those things are true, how the hell are we tied for the best record in the NBA?
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
I never said that they are generational talents. I said they are different from Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson. If the standard is getting Jokic, Giannis, Curry...yeah I'd agree they didn't a player like that. That's a crazy standard to live up to. A championship should never be the expectation. Half the league has never won a championship. The fact that the Jazz are in a position to compete for a championship almost entirely from the margins is a testament to how good they've been in that area. There are certainly reasons why the Jazz aren't as good as they could be...but as far as scouting/developing, the Jazz have gotten more out of that than anyone can reasonably expect.

The ridiculousness in this conversation is whining about Torrey Craig and Frank Jackson, as if those are the players who win championships and show competence while chalking up Gobert, Mitchell, and the rest of the players as bare minimum. Insanity.
All i'm saying is that the management are doing their jobs like they are supposed to. Nothing more. Nothing less. Yes we didn't find someone like Jokic/Giannis/Curry/Kawhi despite having the opportunities to do so but they did manage to do their job by coming up with Rudy/Mitchell and building a winning franchise around them. That's why they got to keep their jobs whereas Suns/Kings/Lakers/Minny GMs didn't.

Working around the margins isn't all that difficult. Neither is finding an allstar caliber player like Mitchell and Gobert over a seven year span with multiple lottery draft picks at your disposal. Any functional scouting/player development can get you there.

Guys like Niang and Royce literally come out every year and you act like it's worth some kind of trophy by getting them. The reason i brought up Craig in the first place is to show just how easy was it for the Suns to grab a guy like that and contribute from day one. Remember how long it took the Jazz to turn Niang from scrub into a legit NBA player?

I think that is the whole point of this thread. Oni, Morgan, Brantley, Hughes all struggle to find their place in the league and you saying that's because we are competing for a chip and have no time to play those guys. Well, are the Suns competing for a chip? Are Nets competing for a chip? Are Sixers competing for a chip? Are Nuggets competing for a chip?

We don't have a MVP/future hall of famer type of talent to elevate us in the playoffs and that's fine. Then we just need an even stronger supporting cast to help Rudy/Mithcell get there, compared to the SuperNets, Jokic's Nuggets, Giannis Bucks, Doncic Mavs, etc.

Suns get it so they kept working around the margins to find Bridges/Johnson/Craig/Carter to help Booker. And now you are telling me that we should just be happy with Royce, Niang and Ingles, who we found over six years ago?
 
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