What Became of Player Development?


jom2003

Well-Known Member
I couldn't quite place it until last night but Forrest's shot has a little Ball brothers/Haliburton (Sacto rookie) look and feel to it.

But yeah for an undrafted rookie he is basically exceeding realistic expectations, if he can turn into a guard (PG/SG) version of Royce that would be a huge boon for the Jazz.
Hoping it's not just some Juwan Morgan type of fluke. The kid is getting some unique opportunities with Mitchell/Conley out and making the most of it. He needs consistent playing time.
 


framer

Well-Known Member
Hoping it's not just some Juwan Morgan type of fluke. The kid is getting some unique opportunities with Mitchell/Conley out and making the most of it. He needs consistent playing time.
Once Mitchell and Conley come back there will be almost no playing time, at least for the rest of this season. Jazz have bigger fish to fry than prioritizing playing time for Trent.
 

Doc Cherno

Well-Known Member
Agreed there are bigger concerns, but him getting time and improving now really helps in the playoffs. If we get into any blowout games Q can confidently pull Mitchell and Conley sooner and we likely don't surrender double digit leads right at the end.
 

homeytennis

Well-Known Member
Agreed there are bigger concerns, but him getting time and improving now really helps in the playoffs. If we get into any blowout games Q can confidently pull Mitchell and Conley sooner and we likely don't surrender double digit leads right at the end.
If this were a normal year and the GLeague was still going, it would be worth sending him down to SLCC to play some games.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
Player scouting and player development goes hand in hand. Our player development certainly has work to do, but it's not like our player scouting is doing them any favor.

Take this kid for example. The Jazz has at least three opportunities to get him and he ****ing lives in Utah.

And now he's balling in Detroit and will probably get signed long term in the summer.

Shooting 40% from deep on over 4 attempts per game and we went for......Matt Thomas?

Now Imagine we have Mitchell/Conley out and JC who can't buy a bucket, and we desperately need someone like Frank Jackson off the bench to provide some much needed firepower. Oh wait, that actually happened......

What is the expectation here? That the Jazz land every diamond in the rough? The Jazz have the best record in the league and the majority of the rotation was a diamond in the rough.

If you don’t think the Jazz have been successful working the margins and finding/developing talent, nobody in the league is good. Now of course, we fans are actually all knowing and we all know the NBA teams don’t know better.

I’m a big Frank Jackson fan and wish the kid well, but all 30 teams (including Det) did not give him a full guaranteed NBA contract. Wow...our player scouting failed us. Just like did with Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles, O’Neale, Niang, Clarkson etc. What a horrible track record.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
What is the expectation here? That the Jazz land every diamond in the rough? The Jazz have the best record in the league and the majority of the rotation was a diamond in the rough.

If you don’t think the Jazz have been successful working the margins and finding/developing talent, nobody in the league is good. Now of course, we fans are actually all knowing and we all know the NBA teams don’t know better.

I’m a big Frank Jackson fan and wish the kid well, but all 30 teams (including Det) did not give him a full guaranteed NBA contract. Wow...our player scouting failed us. Just like did with Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles, O’Neale, Niang, Clarkson etc. What a horrible track record.
Well first of all, we "had" the best record in the league and now we don't. That title goes to Phoenix. "Thanks" to our rotational guys holding things together in Mitchell's absence.

Second, like i said earlier in this thread, what standard are we talking about here?

The jazz is a well-run organization, don't get me wrong. Well-run in terms of "hovering around 40-50 wins for early round playoffs exit" every year. But to reach the next step we'll have to do more than the level we're currently at.

For the players you mentioned, Clarkson is already well established as a player in LA and Cleveland and has been performing at more or less the same level since coming here. Not sure how much the player development or scouting can take credit for it.

Mitchell is the first hit this FO has made after blowing like five lotto picks in a row(Kanter, AB, Burke, Dante and Lyles) so i'm not sure how much of a victory they can take from this.

There is pure luck in drafting no matter how well your scouting is, meaning you can randomly select a guy from the green room without doing any research or scouting at all, and you'd probably end up with about the same hit rate like we did(which is not good). Even Phoenix's FO got Devin Booker from the draft before getting fired and removed from basketball business altogether in 2018.

Not sure about anyone else but I'm gonna be honest and say that both Niang and O'neale are pretty underwhelming as our main rotation guys. They are decent role players don't get me wrong, But they simply don't play at a level warranting anything more than 15 min a night.

Take Torrey Craig who got shipped to Phoenix basically for free. I'd say he's about the same caliber of player as Royce. And we're taking Royce as our starting wing and probably one of the best things ever happened to our player development/scouting even though they are plenty of guys like him sitting at the market every year. If that's the level of expectation we are talking about then we are set for another 40-50win/early round exit.

Now we do have to give the FO some credit for finding Joe, but he was brought in as the "babysitter" for Dante because of his Aussie root, and he was already pretty well established as an international player before coming in. Even that happened nearly 7 years ago. If it's something that could be repeated(Clippers found him first and then basically had to let him go because there was no such thing as "two-way contract" back then so he fell into our laps), I'm sure it would've already happened by now.
 
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KqWIN

Well-Known Member
Well first of all, we "had" the best record in the league and now we don't. That title goes to Phoenix. "Thanks" to our rotational guys holding things together in Mitchell's absence.

Second, like i said earlier in this thread, what standard are we talking about here?

The jazz is a well-run organization, don't get me wrong. Well-run in terms of "hovering around 40-50 wins for early round playoffs exit" every year. But to reach the next step we'll have to do more than the level we're currently at.

For the players you mentioned, Clarkson is already well established as a player in LA and Cleveland and has been performing at more or less the same level since coming here. Not sure how much the player development or scouting can take credit for it.

Mitchell is the first hit this FO has made after blowing like five lotto picks in a row(Kanter, AB, Burke, Dante and Lyles) so i'm not sure how much of a victory they can take from this.

There is pure luck in drafting no matter how well your scouting is, meaning you can randomly select a guy from the green room without doing any research or research at all, and you'd probably end up with about the same hit rate like we did(which is not good). Even Phoenix's FO got Devin Booker from the draft before getting fired and removed from basketball business altogether in 2018.

Not sure about anyone else but I'm gonna be honest and say that both Niang and O'neale are pretty underwhelming as our main rotation guys. They are decent role players don't get me wrong, But they simply don't play at a level warranting anything more than 15 min a night.

Take Torrey Craig who got shipped to Phoenix basically for free. I'd say he's about the same caliber of player as Royce. And we're taking Royce as our starting wing and probably one of the best things ever happened to our player development/scouting even though they are plenty of guys like him sitting at the market every year. If that's the level of expectation we are talking about then we are set for another 50win/early round exit.

Now we do have to give the FO some credit for finding Joe, but he was brought in as the "babysitter" for Dante because of his Aussie root, and he was already pretty well established as an international player before coming in. Even that happened nearly 7 years ago. If it's something that could be repeated(Clippers found him first and then basically had to let him go because there was no such thing as "two-way contract" back then so he fell into our laps), I'm sure it would've already happened by now.

You can nickel and dime them for not making X, Y, Z move...but the whole thing is ridiculous when you take a step back and look at the track record. The Jazz are a a good team and have been good for years. They've had an amount of success that some franchises can't achieve after a decade plus. The teams that are better or as good as the Jazz at the margins are also great on the margins.

I just love how everyone who goes on this rant brings up the lucky wins. Of course there's luck involved. This a sport, there's always going to be risk and chance. It's so funny how every win the Jazz FO is luck and every time they miss out on someone it's now an exact science and it shows their ineptitude.

Sure, it would have been nice to pick up Torrey Craig. Looks like a great fit for him after not working out in what looked to be a great situation in MIL (having the right player in the right situation doesn't matter of course). But it's just incredibly funny to me that people get up in arms about missing out on Torrey Craig and give little to no credit for landing someone like Rudy Gobert or Donovan Mitchell. All stars? Meh....we all know that championships are driven by finding that end of rotation role player....but also not the role players the Jazz found themselves.
 

jom2003

Well-Known Member
You can nickel and dime them for not making X, Y, Z move...but the whole thing is ridiculous when you take a step back and look at the track record. The Jazz are a a good team and have been good for years. They've had an amount of success that some franchises can't achieve after a decade plus. The teams that are better or as good as the Jazz at the margins are also great on the margins.

I just love how everyone who goes on this rant brings up the lucky wins. Of course there's luck involved. This a sport, there's always going to be risk and chance. It's so funny how every win the Jazz FO is luck and every time they miss out on someone it's now an exact science and it shows their ineptitude.

Sure, it would have been nice to pick up Torrey Craig. Looks like a great fit for him after not working out in what looked to be a great situation in MIL (having the right player in the right situation doesn't matter of course). But it's just incredibly funny to me that people get up in arms about missing out on Torrey Craig and give little to no credit for landing someone like Rudy Gobert or Donovan Mitchell. All stars? Meh....we all know that championships are driven by finding that end of rotation role player....but also not the role players the Jazz found themselves.
we are operating at a good level but the expectation is a championship, which leaves a lot more to be desired. I'm sure that's the whole argument here.

It's especially shown during our games with Minny when we simply ran out of gas towards the end. A bit more coming from our rotation guys we'd have won those games and retain our top seed heading into the playoffs.
 

KqWIN

Well-Known Member
we are operating at a good level but the expectation is a championship, which leaves a lot more to be desired. I'm sure that's the whole argument here.

It's especially shown during our games with Minny when we simply ran out of gas towards the end. A bit more coming from our rotation guys we'd have won those games and retain our top seed heading into the playoffs.

It takes a lot to win a championship, and it's not that the Jazz aren't doing enough on the margins. It's also hilarious to pull the championship card when whining about Frank Jackson and Torey Craig and downplaying Gobert and Mitchell. Not to mention the several other role players the Jazz have gotten on the margins. The majority of this roster is from the margins.

No team has won a championship simply by doing well on the margins. The only area the Jazz have done well is on the margins and finding/developing underrated talent. Like I said, the FO has several valid criticisms. But their ability to scout/develop is definitely not one of them. If the Jazz aren't good at this, you can't name another team in the league that is good.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
As much as I hated the Conley trade (and I still hate it) and as expensive, small, and fragile as he is he has been amazing for the jazz on court this year on both ends and in every way.
Can't wait to see him in the playoffs this year and I absolutely think he takes us to another level

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
It's kind of ridiculous to call him fragile this year when half the league is dealing with injury issues do the the compacted season.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
Player scouting and player development goes hand in hand. Our player development certainly has work to do, but it's not like our player scouting is doing them any favor.

Take this kid for example. The Jazz has at least three opportunities to get him and he ****ing lives in Utah.

And now he's balling in Detroit and will probably get signed long term in the summer.

Shooting 40% from deep on over 4 attempts per game and we went for......Matt Thomas?

Now Imagine we have Mitchell/Conley out and JC who can't buy a bucket, and we desperately need someone like Frank Jackson off the bench to provide some much needed firepower. Oh wait, that actually happened......
Wow, it's crazy how there are so many good players on the Pistons putting up these great stats and they are still in the worst team in the NBA.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Yeah, this is one of the complaints I don’t get. This team was built almost entirely on the margins and was heavily reliant on player development. Plenty of things to complain about as far as the FO, but hard to be upset with the results. It sucks that Jack Cooley never developed into a star but the team is still sitting at the top of the league despite that.
Jack Cooley is a star... you shut yo damn mouf.
 

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