What to do with AK?

[NotDeadYet]

The key to using him is to limit his minutes. Hopefully he'll embrace whatever off-season program the Jazz have perscribed for him. It'll help his cause that he is skipping the European/Russian league this summer.
The more I think about it, I like the idea of a starting front court of CJ, AK, and Big Al. Some speed and energy there! Doesn't mean they would all play the majority minutes, as our bench of Hayward, Millsap, and Okur would see plenty of minutes too. Just don't overuse AK and I think he's fine...
Another point; never under-estimate the value of players who can play multiple positions. AK could still play some SF, moving Big Al to PF. Memo will likely start the season with limited minutes due to his injury, but later on should be capable of playing starter minutes. The versatility of AK and Big Al makes them even more valuable, IMO...

 

[Borat]

I think David Kahn is a moron. But Darko is not a horrible player. He is just horrible for being drafted that high. Held to a higher standard.

He is a good passer and a good shot blocker. Bad rebounder and he has no post moves. Decent mid range shot. I would rather have Darko for 5 Million rather than Okur or 10 million. I think we are just as bad to sign Okur to that contract. And I was saying that last summer when it happened too.

On NBATV they had Kahn on, Chris Webber was talking to him about Darko, what he sees in him, why they signed him. Kahn basically mentioned that like Chris Webber himself helped his career when he moved to Sacramento, similarly Darko could benefit in Minny. Webber got so pissed off, and several times said something like, let's not mention me and Darko in the same sentence. We just want to know why you got him, that's all. Hilarious stuff.

 

[Doc Cherno]

Geez, I can't believe all the hyperbole and vitriole about AK in this thread. This guy will have a major year if he doesn't get injured and should be on this team. He does get injured a lot, but it is because he plays in the air. He's like the high-wire act at the circus vs the guy who cracks the whip and makes the ponies dance (Boozer). A lot of folks keep harping on his contract. It is over after this year and AK has said he expects a big pay cut. The only thing any of the guys mentioned as replacements have on him is that they're younger. I can't wait to see him playing in our new line-up with Bell and Al and Deron. All three of those guys are nasty. AK isn't nasty, but he can play serious d like Bell and Deron. This is going to get fun.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

And again, you are the one missing the point. AK is probably a good mid level player, but he isn't better than Matthews, Gortat, Al Harrington, and a minimum player. That is what the Jazz could have if they weren't paying AK- all of those players. In fact, we could have had all of those guys plus another mid level player instead of Raja.

So right now, this year, while you say AK is under rated, he is actally hurting the Jazz. The Jazz would actually be a better team without him. And if the Jazz would be a better team without him, there is no way you can tell me he is under rated.

Yes I can, if we're not taking salaries into consideration, which is what we've said about 50-million times we're doing. Seriously, I feel like a disgruntled adult trying to explain something to a small child. Let me see if I can make this more clear than we've already been.

I agree with *everything you've said* regarding AK's contract. Everything. Yes, we could indeed have a number of good players for what AK's getting. Conceded. Agreed. But, for the 50-million and 1st time, we're not talking whether he's underrated *for his contract*. No one ever said that. Everyone agrees that he is overrated *for his contract*. Everyone. What we're talking about is whether he's underrated or overrated based purely on his basketball skills, divorced from any contract considerations. Fact is, his contract is so god-awful that a lot of people have grown accustomed to bashing him, which makes them miss how valuable he actually is. Imagine for the moment that all the NBA teams were disbanded and we started from scratch with a fantasy draft, and everyone was paid exactly the same salary. Salaries being equal, we're saying AK is underrated purely in terms of his basketball ability.

I really don't know why you want to grind this axe. You seem to want to discuss how much AK's salary has hurt the team. Well, yes, we all agree it has hurt the team! What do you want people to say? We all agree with you! Does it activate some primaeval urge in you to bash AK for someone to say he's still a good player, even if his contract is terrible? I said he's be good for the mid-level only, and you yourself said that "AK is probably a good mid-level player"! GAH! Why are you arguing this point when we already agree on everything? My goodness... this is not a difficult concept we're talking about.

 

[gregbroncs]

I like AK. I still think this team needs the 2nd playmaker on the floor to help distribute the ball while also being a semi threat. Him being the best overall defender on the team is a plus as well. I think AK's future may be directly tied to how good Hayward is and if he can be a defender at all. Hayward looks to have some of AK passing presence while possibly being better at attacking the basket and passing (we'll have to see, but looked good from what I have seen). The issue with Hayward is can he defend at the NBA level? Who knows but AK's future may hinge on it.

I don't want to lose him for nothing. Either trade him for a good player making 6-10 M per year or sign him this off season for 6-8 M per year depending on how this team gels and the impact of Hayward.

 

[SaltyDawg]

SaltyDawg, no offense, but you're the one who doesn't get it. How many times do we have to agree with you? AK has a bad contract. Conceded. There isn't a person in the world, except maybe Masha, who would dream of disagreeing with you. But that's simply not what we're talking about. But since we're on the subject, there is no guarantee the Jazz would have Gortat, Harrington, and whoever else is on your wish list if only they hadn't signed AK to all that money. In fact, they probably wouldn't have D-Will or Al Jefferson or Paul Millsap. The whole team would have been constructed differently. We'd have a completely different history. It's utter pointlessness to go down that road.

But for the record, AK wasn't responsible for the Maynor salary dump. AK doesn't make the front office decisions. If you want to be mad at somebody about it, at least have the balls to place the blame where the blame is due: on the Millers for not wanting to pay the luxury tax.

And I don't see the good in complaining about the Ronnie Brewer trade anymore, considering A) He got injured almost immediately following the trade. B) Wesley Matthews actually ended up being better for us. And C) That trade allowed us to bring in Al Jefferson.

I want Maynor back more than anybody. I loved the guy. But your anger at AK is at best misplaced, and at worst, not much more than sour grapes.

Yes I can, if we're not taking salaries into consideration, which is what we've said about 50-million times we're doing. Seriously, I feel like a disgruntled adult trying to explain something to a small child. Let me see if I can make this more clear than we've already been.

I agree with *everything you've said* regarding AK's contract. Everything. Yes, we could indeed have a number of good players for what AK's getting. Conceded. Agreed. But, for the 50-million and 1st time, we're not talking whether he's underrated *for his contract*. No one ever said that. Everyone agrees that he is overrated *for his contract*. Everyone. What we're talking about is whether he's underrated or overrated based purely on his basketball skills, divorced from any contract considerations. Fact is, his contract is so god-awful that a lot of people have grown accustomed to bashing him, which makes them miss how valuable he actually is. Imagine for the moment that all the NBA teams were disbanded and we started from scratch with a fantasy draft, and everyone was paid exactly the same salary. Salaries being equal, we're saying AK is underrated purely in terms of his basketball ability.

I really don't know why you want to grind this axe. You seem to want to discuss how much AK's salary has hurt the team. Well, yes, we all agree it has hurt the team! What do you want people to say? We all agree with you! Does it activate some primaeval urge in you to bash AK for someone to say he's still a good player, even if his contract is terrible? I said he's be good for the mid-level only, and you yourself said that "AK is probably a good mid-level player"! GAH! Why are you arguing this point when we already agree on everything? My goodness... this is not a difficult concept we're talking about.

Both of you guys... This is the real world. I understand in your fantasy world salaries don't matter. But we are in the real world here, and we're talking about the Utah Jazz. They are absolutely not going to go over a certain amount for payroll.

So even if YOU don't factor in the salary, the reality is the team DOES factor it in. We have already given away several players in salary dumps. We also watched Al Harrington sign with another team when he said he would love to play for the Jazz, we saw Beasley get traded for a second round pick when we had a TPE we could have used for him, we're going to miss out on Gortat when we have a TPE we could use for him, we lost Matthews when we had the right to match his deal, we lost Korver for nothing...

Again, I understand that YOU aren't factoring in salaries. But you have to understand that in the real world salary is absolutely a huge factor. If New Jersey or some other team had taken AK's entire contract off our hands on draft night, you better believe we would have Al Harrington right now, Wesley Matthews, probably Gortat for the Harpring TPE, and another MLE range player at whatever spot we felt we still needed help.

That is right now. This year. And if you don't think think that would make the Jazz a better team, you're crazy. So if we would actually be a better team without AK, then there is just no way you can tell me he is under rated. Period.

Now if you are arguing that he will sign for the minimum in the future and be a great player that brings it every night and never gets hurt, that is another story. But if you are telling me that he is under rated right now when the Jazz would actually be a better team without him, then you're crazy. And if you're trying to get me to forget about his salary when we have lost a bunch of good players over the last couple years because of his salary, then you're not living in reality.

 

[Stickler]

But if you are telling me that he is under rated right now when the Jazz would actually be a better team without him, then you're crazy.

I'll say this for the last time. There are two basic ideas present in that sentence that have no real relationship to each other. Kirilenko being underrated has absolutely nothing to do with whether the team might be better without him. Those are two completely different topics. You keep throwing bizarre criteria into the conversation. It's not causal. Take out whatever unrelated arguments you want to make. AK is underrated. The end.

How do you still not understand this? Holy crap. We might not live in the same world. I live in a world where nuance is allowed.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I'll say this for the last time. There are two basic ideas present in that sentence that have no real relationship to each other. Kirilenko being underrated has absolutely nothing to do with whether the team might be better without him. Those are two completely different topics. You keep throwing bizarre criteria into the conversation. It's not causal. Take out whatever unrelated arguments you want to make. AK is underrated. The end.

How do you still not understand this? Holy crap. We might not live in the same world. I live in a world where nuance is allowed.

So you are saying it's entirely possible for a player to make a team worse than they would be without him, and yet the player is under rated?

LOL, not sure what world you live in but it is definitely not in reality.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Geez, I can't believe all the hyperbole and vitriole about AK in this thread. This guy will have a major year if he doesn't get injured and should be on this team. He does get injured a lot, but it is because he plays in the air. He's like the high-wire act at the circus vs the guy who cracks the whip and makes the ponies dance (Boozer). A lot of folks keep harping on his contract. It is over after this year and AK has said he expects a big pay cut. The only thing any of the guys mentioned as replacements have on him is that they're younger. I can't wait to see him playing in our new line-up with Bell and Al and Deron. All three of those guys are nasty. AK isn't nasty, but he can play serious d like Bell and Deron. This is going to get fun.

He plays in the air? What games have you been watching? He's not a shotblocker any more. And his signature offensive move is to drive wildly into the lane, throw his hands up like Forrest Gump at a rave, and hope a ref thinks he was fouled, not just spastic.

He gets a couple of steals and makes a couple of nice passes during a game. Big f'in deal. He's really not a good defender, at least not one-on-one. Bigger players just push him aside and shooters just take a step-back jumper. He's good on help defense and jumping the passing lanes - that's it.

What we need to do is trade AK for a bonafide starting SF or SG at the deadline. Then you'd potentially have three stars: Deron, Jefferson and the new SG/SF with a very good player in Millsap and whoever wins out at the other wing (Raja/CJ now and maybe Hayward in a couple of years). With Okur rotating in at the 4/5 and CJ/Raja and Hayward at the 2/3, that's a pretty lethal rotation. Add a decent PG who can play aorind 13/per so Deron can stay fresh. Not bad.

 

[freakazoid]

Underrated my ***. He is getting paid more than Deron and turns in half the productivity.

And more importantly the ****er takes 15 games off on an average every season like it is almost a given. No one even reacts anymore when they hear he is down with some injury or the other. And he gets a free pass on that while Boozer got bashed every time he went down.

Underrated as a player, no doubt. Overrated when you consider his contract, duh. There's a difference when rating him as a player, than rating him on his contract. I don't think anyone would argue that he's not grossly overpaid right now.

Suppose Utah keeps him, and then signs him at 21-24 million for 3 years? Still want to dump Him? Honest question.

 

[Stickler]

So you are saying it's entirely possible for a player to make a team worse than they would be without him, and yet the player is under rated?

LOL, not sure what world you live in but it is definitely not in reality.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, within the framework of the way you have structured the argument. Is it possible that the Jazz, right now, would have a better team without AK? I'll concede that it's possible. Note: that's not the same thing as saying that if we removed AK from this team, as presently constituted, and added no one to replace him, that the Jazz would be better.

I have to be very careful, apparently, in the way I phrase things here, because I don't want to confuse you any further.

So, yes. That is what I'm saying. Because, again, the question of what the team might do without him, and the question of whether or not he, individually as a player regardless of his contract situation, is underrated, are entirely different things.

And now, I will end this without actually insulting you, because, real-world or not, I like to think I can live in a world where I can see things differently from somebody without it freaking me out so much that I have to start slinging a bunch of attacks.

I like AK. I'm not thrilled about his contract. I'll leave it at that. Have a nice night.

 

[write4u]

No sense arguing with Salty, he's been an AK hater for a long time. Nothing anyone says will change that.

 

[freakazoid]

if you're trying to get me to forget about his salary when we have lost a bunch of good players over the last couple years because of his salary, then you're not living in reality.

Ever heard of that one guy named Boozer? I heard he missed a few games while getting paid. Sorry, I just probably missed all that while I was trying to live in reality.

 

[vegas]

For me as an armchair gm its simple.

• Feel out a price tag for an extension.
• Shop around with teams who want a big expiring contract to see what they are willing to give up

Decide which has more value for the team, once you know what you could have instead of what you already have.

As a fan, I think AK is absolutely unique as a player. For the right price, I can handle one more season of his contract and wait til next year to add another player or two.

I am also interested to see if it helps that he is not playing in Russia this summer.

 

[billyshelby]

What we need to do is trade AK for a bonafide starting SF or SG at the deadline.

I'm just putting it out there, but AK was 7th in PER amongst small forwards last year. He was 8th amongst all shooting guards with that PER if you count Beaubois being ahead of him. So when you add every 2 and 3 in the league last year, AK was Top 15. How is he not bonafide? This is the basic problem that runs through all perceptions of players. If somebody's forte isn't scoring, then he must not be all that great. And yet only 14 guys who play 2 and 3 are statistically better than AK. I get the injury stuff. But pretending AK isn't one of the most skilled players in the game considering all his attributes is kind of silly.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Underrated as a player, no doubt. Overrated when you consider his contract, duh. There's a difference when rating him as a player, than rating him on his contract. I don't think anyone would argue that he's not grossly overpaid right now.

Suppose Utah keeps him, and then signs him at 21-24 million for 3 years? Still want to dump Him? Honest question.

At $7-8M, yes. I wouldn't tie up that kind of salary in a 30 yr. old with a history of ankle and back problems. Give me a young player who has upside, or spend more on a very good starting wing who can hit some outside shots. AK is an inconsistent shooter. He can drive into the lane and get some fouls called at home. That's less effective on the road. If we accuse others of "flopping' then I think we need to come up with another term for what AK does, perhaps "flailing?"

 

[Archie Moses]

+ and -'s are about as reliable in the NBA as they are in calculus.

 

[billyshelby]

At $7-8M, yes. I wouldn't tie up that kind of salary in a 30 yr. old with a history of ankle and back problems. Give me a young player who has upside, or spend more on a very good starting wing who can hit some outside shots. AK is an inconsistent shooter. He can drive into the lane and get some fouls called at home. That's less effective on the road. If we accuse others of "flopping' then I think we need to come up with another term for what AK does, perhaps "flailing?"

In the same year AK was flailing, he was, per 48, amongst other 3's in the league:

13th in scoring
18th in rebounds
1st in assists
1st in blocked shots
7th in PER

How can you keep ignoring all this? Or how do you account for why it doesn't matter and there are lots of guys who can do this?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Ever heard of that one guy named Boozer? I heard he missed a few games while getting paid. Sorry, I just probably missed all that while I was trying to live in reality.

Boozer is not here anymore. We lost Matthews and Korver in the last week. Al Harrington also said he wanted to play for the Jazz yet we let him go to Denver for the midlevel the other day. Orlando is trying to dump salary, and they have Gortat barely getting any minutes behing Howard- and we have the Harpring TPE that we could trade for him. We could have also used that same TPE on Beasley- who was traded for a second round pick the other day.

All of this is while Boozer is/was a member of the Bulls.

So if you're talking about Boozer, you're living in the past, not in reality. AK's contract is the current reality when you start looking for reasons the Jazz aren't getting/keeping any of these guys.

Speaking of Boozer, when we got rid of him we replaced himwith Al Jefferson. Not bad at all.

 

[Stickler]

Al Harrington didn't say he wanted to play for the Jazz. I believe he said he would give them a look.