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Who would you trade, Don or Rudy?


Would you let Don or Rudy go?

  • Let Don go

  • Let Rudy go


Results are only viewable after voting.


LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2020-21 Award Winner
According to you, Rudy is the only one who tries and the only one who plays defense.

And I'm the one who "white knights" Donovan. You guys are ridiculous.

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Well the stats bear that assertion out. What can you point to that refutes it? On-off, the LEBRON start, any stat you care to use shows Rudy is multiple times the defender Mitchell is. It's been shown here many times. The eye test was the best proof during the playoffs with Mitchell literally stepping out of the way of drivers with zero resistance multiple times per game. I'm not sure what you have to argue that Mitchell tries just as hard as Gobert on defense, which is the argument he is making.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
Oh wait, 10-15 Jazz fans on a forum have an opinion that's different that mine....

Zero teams compete for titles built around offensively limited rim protecting centers.

$40 million for Rudy? $40? Wake up people.

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I mean the percentage of JazzFanz that feel you white knight for Donovan being like 98% should tell you something… even though the number may be small.

Rim protection is important and Rudy can also guard on the perimeter. He’s not ideal to build a contender for sure… neither is a small guard who refuses to give his all to the team on defense or maybe just sucks on that end… maybe if he was the best shooter the game has ever seen like Curry it could change. Where it stands he’s a poor man’s Dame and that ain’t gonna get ya far.
 

LoPo

Banned
Well the stats bear that assertion out. What can you point to that refutes it? On-off, the LEBRON start, any stat you care to use shows Rudy is multiple times the defender Mitchell is. It's been shown here many times. The eye test was the best proof during the playoffs with Mitchell literally stepping out of the way of drivers with zero resistance multiple times per game. I'm not sure what you have to argue that Mitchell tries just as hard as Gobert on defense, which is the argument he is making.
You guys are so insecure about this Rudy Don dynamic. If I make a comment about Rudy, it can happen without anything being implied about Don.

I know Rudy is a good defender and better than Don. I know that Rudy tries harder at defense and more than Don. I've never said otherwise.

Saying Rudy is the only guy on our team who plays defense or the only guy who tries is an insult to everybody on the roster because it's simply untrue.

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LoPo

Banned
I mean the percentage of JazzFanz that feel you white knight for Donovan being like 98% should tell you something… even though the number may be small.

Rim protection is important and Rudy can also guard on the perimeter. He’s not ideal to build a contender for sure… neither is a small guard who refuses to give his all to the team on defense or maybe just sucks on that end… maybe if he was the best shooter the game has ever seen like Curry it could change. Where it stands he’s a poor man’s Dame and that ain’t gonna get ya far.
My points on Rudy are about Rudy. Quit blurring the lines between Rudy points and Don points.

I have said we should trade Don if he wants out.

Regardless, we should trade Rudy. He's overpaid and doesn't impact playoff basketball the way would like to think he does.

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FrenchJazzFa

Active Member
2022 Award Winner
Oh wait, 10-15 Jazz fans on a forum have an opinion that's different that mine....

Zero teams compete for titles built around offensively limited rim protecting centers.

$40 million for Rudy? $40? Wake up people.

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i agree with you. But we could also say that zero team compete for title with their player nunber one putting zero effort in defense.
For me the problem is not Don or Rudy but the player who put around based on their pros and cons. This team is not just well balanced.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
My points on Rudy are about Rudy. Quit blurring the lines between Rudy points and Don points.

I have said we should trade Don if he wants out.

Regardless, we should trade Rudy. He's overpaid and doesn't impact playoff basketball the way would like to think he does.

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Quit acting like it isn’t completely relevant and try to argue actual facts and ****… you said championship teams aren’t built on a player like player X and I merely pointed out they aren’t built on Player Y either because this thread is literally about which guy we should trade. I think we should trade both… if I’m picking one I picked Rudy… difference is I used actual good reasons. If those reasons applied to the other player I would say trade them both. Like if I had said championship contenders aren’t built around small guards and someone says they aren’t built around defensive centers with limited offense.

Watching the Mavs last night I literally thought if they had Rudy they’d be up 15-20 points. They couldn’t protect the rim and got murdered on the glass… while Maxi missed infinity open threes.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2020-21 Award Winner
I mean the percentage of JazzFanz that feel you white knight for Donovan being like 98% should tell you something… even though the number may be small.

Rim protection is important and Rudy can also guard on the perimeter. He’s not ideal to build a contender for sure… neither is a small guard who refuses to give his all to the team on defense or maybe just sucks on that end… maybe if he was the best shooter the game has ever seen like Curry it could change. Where it stands he’s a poor man’s Dame and that ain’t gonna get ya far.
And even at that Curry is a better defender than Mitchell. That is the difference between a true MVP candidate and a top volume scorer, the MVP is capable of elevating their game in multiple facets when the game (or series) is on the line. Until Mitchell at least becomes passable on defense he will always just be a volume scorer.


Curry is boasting a career-best 96.0 defensive rating, is in the top 15 in the league in steals, and top 22 in deflections.

"Everyone obviously locks in on his offensive brilliance, which they should, but he had six steals [Sunday]. Eight deflections. He’s all over the place," Kerr said. "For whatever reason, he has a reputation of being a poor defender. I don’t see that at all. I think he’s a really good defender and he’s been great defensively."

So let's put the "but Curry is a crap defender too" argument to bed. There just isn't a comparison between the 2. Curry is a far better defender than Mitchell. And in my opinion it has to do with desire, and drive, not physical gifts or some innate defensive instinct.

Curry's reputation as a poor defender stems from his tendency to reach a lot, resulting in a lot of foul calls. In his second season, Cury had a 3.9 percent foul rate which ranked sixth-worst among qualified guards.

As the Warriors entered their dynastic period, Curry improved to become an OK defender. His defensive ratings in the 2014-15 and 2015-16 seasons were both under 100, and he also led the league with 332 steals over those two years. But, he was still a target on switches, especially in the playoffs.

This forced Curry to learn and adjust quickly.

"I knew, especially with a bigger guy in front of you, you can’t hold your space," Curry said. "Your only chance is to try to get a deflection or steal. It’s not a high percentage play at that point. So you fail. And then you get into sort of playoff situation, certain guys who are looking for that foul, you learn to be more disciplined on that front."

Here is another one...


Where Curry has maintained a widely rosy outlook, and what’s helping him carry on as a superstar, is his playmaking and defense. Bouts of sloppy passes still arise intermittently. However, he’s thrived as a facilitator and defender this season, perhaps enjoying the top campaign of his career in each regard.

Due to a month-long hiatus, the passing required a little rust to be shaken off before he began cooking again in the playoffs. What required virtually zero buffer period is his defense. Since Game 1 of the first round against the Denver Nuggets, Curry’s defensive exploits have amplified the Golden State Warriors’ championship pursuits.


View: https://twitter.com/theScore/status/1526349023728254977?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1526349023728254977%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.basketballnews.com%2Fstories%2Fstephen-currys-defense-continues-to-shine-for-the-warriors


Does Mitchell care that much about being a true 2-way player? From the excuses we hear, my feeling is not much. From the reaction we see and the behaviors on the court, my feeling is not at all. He talks a good game in press conferences, but even then he is vague and deflective. All he says is "I need to be better". He never acknowledges that he needs to play better defense specifically. If it does come up, it is in a team context. The underlying meaning is clear, defense isn't Mitchell's job. His job is to hit those crazy tough contested shots he practices all summer.


Donovan Mitchell was asked about his team's struggles on the perimeter, with players like Jalen Brunson scoring 41 points and Maxi Kleber making 8 three-pointers. Considering how the LA Clippers beat them last year, it opened up a wound for Spida who dismissed similarities between last year and this year.
"This is something we can fix. I'm hopeful. Last year was last year, but this year we can go back and fix that. We can go ahead and Stand our ground, shift, and help each other as a team. I don't look at it like 'oh here we go same as last year's. Now we can go and do what we're supposed to do. We have to give them credit where credit is due. Jalen had a great game, Maxi had a great game, and we made it easier. I don't think any of us are looking at it like this is last year all over again because we're healthy and we can control that. I know we will."

Nothing about personal accountability there. I would expect my superstar to say something like "this is on me, as the leader of this team, I need to step up my defensive effort, the change starts with me". But that isn't what we get at all. We just get that the team needs to rotate better, which to me says "I need the team to cover for me" more than "I am responsible to improve my own defensive intensity", and the fact that this is exactly what his behavior on the court says, how can we assume anything different?




To be fair I think more of this is on Snyder than individual players, his system is obviously meant to be "get out of your guy's way and make sure he is moving toward the center so Rudy can pick him up" because that is what so many of our guys do. In fact House actually making an effort to stay in front of his man is an anomaly in our group. Everyone else plays "funnel them to Rudy" defense. That is on Snyder, IMO.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
And even at that Curry is a better defender than Mitchell. That is the difference between a true MVP candidate and a top volume scorer, the MVP is capable of elevating their game in multiple facets when the game (or series) is on the line. Until Mitchell at least becomes passable on defense he will always just be a volume scorer.




So let's put the "but Curry is a crap defender too" argument to bed. There just isn't a comparison between the 2. Curry is a far better defender than Mitchell. And in my opinion it has to do with desire, and drive, not physical gifts or some innate defensive instinct.



Here is another one...





View: https://twitter.com/theScore/status/1526349023728254977?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1526349023728254977%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.basketballnews.com%2Fstories%2Fstephen-currys-defense-continues-to-shine-for-the-warriors


Does Mitchell care that much about being a true 2-way player? From the excuses we hear, my feeling is not much. From the reaction we see and the behaviors on the court, my feeling is not at all. He talks a good game in press conferences, but even then he is vague and deflective. All he says is "I need to be better". He never acknowledges that he needs to play better defense specifically. If it does come up, it is in a team context. The underlying meaning is clear, defense isn't Mitchell's job. His job is to hit those crazy tough contested shots he practices all summer.





Nothing about personal accountability there. I would expect my superstar to say something like "this is on me, as the leader of this team, I need to step up my defensive effort, the change starts with me". But that isn't what we get at all. We just get that the team needs to rotate better, which to me says "I need the team to cover for me" more than "I am responsible to improve my own defensive intensity", and the fact that this is exactly what his behavior on the court says, how can we assume anything different?




To be fair I think more of this is on Snyder than individual players, his system is obviously meant to be "get out of your guy's way and make sure he is moving toward the center so Rudy can pick him up" because that is what so many of our guys do. In fact House actually making an effort to stay in front of his man is an anomaly in our group. Everyone else plays "funnel them to Rudy" defense. That is on Snyder, IMO.

Oh I agree 100%. I know that people still think Steph sucks at defense though and didn’t feel like arguing it as well as you did.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2020-21 Award Winner
You guys are so insecure about this Rudy Don dynamic. If I make a comment about Rudy, it can happen without anything being implied about Don.

I know Rudy is a good defender and better than Don. I know that Rudy tries harder at defense and more than Don. I've never said otherwise.

Saying Rudy is the only guy on our team who plays defense or the only guy who tries is an insult to everybody on the roster because it's simply untrue.

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Yeah, you are the one being sensitive. All I said was the original argument YOU responded to was that Mitchell doesn't try as hard on defense. You defended Mitchell and side-stepped the argument, instead trying to bring up these big sweeping statements. I simply pointed out that the stats prove out the assertion that Mitchell doesn't make the same effort and asked you to provide stats that support your support of Mitchell. You went straight to the "all you people kiss Rudy's ***" argument instead of answering the specific question. You have lost all objectivity on the subject in your need to be the primary Mitchell apologist.

If you really " know Rudy is a good defender and better than Don" then why do you only add that as an aside instead of just acknowledging it straight up. Instead you jump to Donovan's defense, regardless of the topic or the specific question, then deride everyone else for ignoring all bad Rudy does, which is patently false.

This is what you said:
According to you, Rudy is the only one who tries and the only one who plays defense.

And I'm the one who "white knights" Donovan. You guys are ridiculous.

I pointed out that the stats bear that out and asked you to provide stats that refute it. Instead you decided to go ad hominem when I did nothing of the sort. Kinda speaks to the quality of the arguments in play.

I guess you have gone far too deep down the rabbit-hole to be worth conversation on this topic.

Of course I knew that but fell into the trap nonetheless. My bad I guess.
 

LoPo

Banned
Yeah, you are the one being sensitive. All I said was the original argument YOU responded to was that Mitchell doesn't try as hard on defense. You defended Mitchell and side-stepped the argument, instead trying to bring up these big sweeping statements. I simply pointed out that the stats prove out the assertion that Mitchell doesn't make the same effort and asked you to provide stats that support your support of Mitchell. You went straight to the "all you people kiss Rudy's ***" argument instead of answering the specific question. You have lost all objectivity on the subject in your need to be the primary Mitchell apologist.

If you really " know Rudy is a good defender and better than Don" then why do you only add that as an aside instead of just acknowledging it straight up. Instead you jump to Donovan's defense, regardless of the topic or the specific question, then deride everyone else for ignoring all bad Rudy does, which is patently false.

This is what you said:


I pointed out that the stats bear that out and asked you to provide stats that refute it. Instead you decided to go ad hominem when I did nothing of the sort. Kinda speaks to the quality of the arguments in play.

I guess you have gone far too deep down the rabbit-hole to be worth conversation on this topic.

Of course I knew that but fell into the trap nonetheless. My bad I guess.
Rudy should be the MVP every year. I mean, he's the only guy who tries and plays defense, and our team always has a winning record.

MVP
MVP
MVP

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