Why do we restrict the voting rights of felons?

[SaltyDawg]

You disagree about pot smoking having the same controls as tabacco or are you arguing that tabacco does not have any controls?

Arguing that tobacco is addictive.

 

[franklin]

Our children should be our number one concern. We have failed large numbers of them. Giving them cutting edge education and a decent chance at anything they want to do in life should be at the top of a short list if things that must be done no matter what.

Our schools are just fine.

This forum has a tendency to focus on politicking things to death instead of policy recommendations. What do you think will help all these children you think we've failed? Hint: throwing money at inner city education is not an answer.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Somewhat back on topic... In prison, where cigarettes are harder to come by, people fight and kill for them all the time.

I have no idea HOW true this is or how frequent something like this would happen, but it passes the smell test so it's a little compelling. However, the test group is convicted felons. And likely convicted of violent crimes. So...

But interesting point. I don't agree, though. The amount of tobacco a person has to ingest in contrast to something like opiates is not at all proportional. Partially because tobacco gives a very slight high and that goes away pretty quick with regular usage.

I also don't smoke. And I wouldn't throw a fit if it was made illegal. But I do think such an action would make legalization of marijuana (which I am all about) more difficult, and you could make an argument that it's legality is grandfathered. This is outside of the whole free to choose yada argument.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Our schools are just fine.

This forum has a tendency to focus on politicking things to death instead of policy recommendations. What do you think will help all these children you think we've failed? Hint: throwing money at inner city education is not an answer.

Right, because all the best teachers are just dying to work in the crappiest areas, crappiest buildings, crappiest tools (books, boards, computers, etc), with the most over crowded classrooms. They'd certainly rather do that instead of working in the best areas, with the best buildings, best equipment and tools, with smaller class sizes.

What can we do without throwing money at it? Allow teachers to spank kids. Let them pick up the slack when parents don't do their job.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I have no idea HOW true this is or how frequent something like this would happen, but it passes the smell test so it's a little compelling. However, the test group is convicted felons. And likely convicted of violent crimes. So...

But interesting point. I don't agree, though. The amount of tobacco a person has to ingest in contrast to something like opiates is not at all proportional. Partially because tobacco gives a very slight high and that goes away pretty quick with regular usage.

I also don't smoke. And I wouldn't throw a fit if it was made illegal. But I do think such an action would make legalization of marijuana (which I am all about) more difficult, and you could make an argument that it's legality is grandfathered. This is outside of the whole free to choose yada argument.

Ask anyone who smokes how easy it is to quit. I actually know people who used to smoke meth and crack, but still smoke cigarettes.

These days, with all the info we have, most people are only still smoking because they can't quit.

I know many people who have been trying to quit for years. They usually quit for a few weeks, maybe even a few months. They always go back eventually.

I do know a few people that actually quit, but the percentages aren't good.

 

[Stoked]

Our schools are just fine.

This forum has a tendency to focus on politicking things to death instead of policy recommendations. What do you think will help all these children you think we've failed? Hint: throwing money at inner city education is not an answer.

It may not be the answer but proper funding certainly does not hurt. I do not think this is a problem that has a silver bullet solution. What needs to happen is that society needs to become more focused on these schools. After school programs, parent and community involvement, proper tools and resources, avoiding partisan crap in the texts, removing poor teachers and rewarding good ones, increasing teachers pay and benefits so that better teachers are attracted to those positions...

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

 

[Siro]

Ask anyone who smokes how easy it is to quit. I actually know people who used to smoke meth and crack, but still smoke cigarettes.

These days, with all the info we have, most people are only still smoking because they can't quit.

I know many people who have been trying to quit for years. They usually quit for a few weeks, maybe even a few months. They always go back eventually.

I do know a few people that actually quit, but the percentages aren't good.

I don't disagree, but I was a heavy smoker between the ages of 21 and 27. I quit 3 years ago. I did it cold turkey, and it wasn't a big deal. But like you, I know people who have been trying to quit for years.

 

[Stoked]

I don't disagree, but I was a heavy smoker between the ages of 21 and 27. I quit 3 years ago. I did it cold turkey, and it wasn't a big deal. But like you, I know people who have been trying to quit for years.

Just goes to show you that there are no absolutes. People react differently to the exact same scenario.

 

[One Brow]

I love how dems bash republicans for voter id's. If you guys would do it honestly instead of trying to rig the system so often, it wouldn't be an issue. But democrats breaking the law when it comes to voting becomes a republicans hate you crusade.

VoterID won't fix attempts to rig the system, because in-person voter fraud is extremely rare and has no ability to rig the system. If Republicans were honestly tryingto fix attempts to rig the system, they would be working on issues like ballot confusion, ballot security, and not hiring people wh throw out voter registration forms.

I cpould have responded in more detail to you one-sided bleat, selective use of examples, and abominable reasoning skills, but everyone on here has seen it before. Beside, you play board games, so you have some redeeming qualities.

 

[franklin]

Right, because all the best teachers are just dying to work in the crappiest areas, crappiest buildings, crappiest tools (books, boards, computers, etc), with the most over crowded classrooms. They'd certainly rather do that instead of working in the best areas, with the best buildings, best equipment and tools, with smaller class sizes.

You're absolutely correct. Loss of human capital is a large contributing factor in community decline. Do you have a reason to believe throwing money at it will somehow help even though it has had the exact opposite effect so far? I'm not interested in head-up-your-*** rhetoric either. Give me a study, anything that doesn't make me dumber from reading it.

Here's an example of a worthwhile source:

The primary reason that public housing has (arguably) contributed to poverty lies in its
origins: the Federal urban renewal program. While the policy goal of the 1949 Housing
Act was “a decent home and a suitable living environment for every American family,”
its public purpose was to eliminate bad housing, not to rehouse slum dwellers. In effect,
urban renewal was to eliminate blight, or declining property values, not to clear and
rebuild slums for their residents. By placing urban renewal under the rubric of a housing
program, downtown development interests gained the much-needed support of progressive
advocates for low-income housing, thereby co-opting their opposition (Weiss, 1980).

Because participation in the Federal urban renewal program was voluntary, the extent
of public housing construction varied across and within regions. Many municipalities,
particularly in suburban areas, chose not to participate in urban renewal, whereas the ones
that did, typically older inner cities with a pre-existing impoverished population, gained
a disproportionate concentration of public housing (Jackson, 1985). Within these cities,
planners tended to locate new housing within or adjacent to black neighborhoods out of
political expediency, as elected officials typically wielded veto power over site selection
(Meyerson and Banfield, 1955; Massey and Denton, 1993; Hirsch, 1983). By the 1960s,
the Brooke Amendment led housing authorities to begin admitting welfare recipients
and other destitute groups, instead of focusing on the working poor (Jackson, 1985). The
result of these political factors was that the low- to medium-density housing of the inner
cities was replaced by high-density towers and formerly working-class neighborhoods
became segregated by race and income on an unprecedented scale (Massey and Denton,
1993). For the first time, the governments were clearly at fault for “making the second
ghetto,” or reinforcing patterns of segregation (Hirsch, 1983).

From the Berkley paper linked to above.

 

[One Brow]

Right, because all the best teachers are just dying to work in the crappiest areas, crappiest buildings, crappiest tools (books, boards, computers, etc), with the most over crowded classrooms. They'd certainly rather do that instead of working in the best areas, with the best buildings, best equipment and tools, with smaller class sizes.

I agree with franklin that simply improving school is not enough. They've been doing brain research that indicates no matter what your school opportunities are, if you leave in constant stress/fear, learning is extremely difficult or impossible. If you believe that, regardless of education, you will always be treated as second class, the motivation to learn is diminished. If your diet is lacking, you can't form new brain structures adequately. Schooling is only part of the picture, and possibly not even the second-most important part.

 

[Stoked]

I agree with franklin that simply improving school is not enough. They've been doing brain research that indicates no matter what your school opportunities are, if you leave in constant stress/fear, learning is extremely difficult or impossible. If you believe that, regardless of education, you will always be treated as second class, the motivation to learn is diminished. If your diet is lacking, you can't form new brain structures adequately. Schooling is only part of the picture, and possibly not even the second-most important part.

That is where getting the community involved comes in. It wont happen but the problem wont be fixed with out it.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I agree with franklin that simply improving school is not enough. They've been doing brain research that indicates no matter what your school opportunities are, if you leave in constant stress/fear, learning is extremely difficult or impossible. If you believe that, regardless of education, you will always be treated as second class, the motivation to learn is diminished. If your diet is lacking, you can't form new brain structures adequately. Schooling is only part of the picture, and possibly not even the second-most important part.

I completely agree with this. But the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. All of that can be (and is) true, but we are still lacking in funds in a lot of areas.

Outdated textbooks, obsolete technology (why are we even using textbooks, every student should have a tablet connected to the school's WiFi network), decaying buildings, and over crowded classrooms.

I'm not at all surprised when the best teachers choose to teach at the best schools.

 

[franklin]

I agree with franklin that simply improving school is not enough. They've been doing brain research that indicates no matter what your school opportunities are, if you leave in constant stress/fear, learning is extremely difficult or impossible. If you believe that, regardless of education, you will always be treated as second class, the motivation to learn is diminished. If your diet is lacking, you can't form new brain structures adequately. Schooling is only part of the picture, and possibly not even the second-most important part.

Not even that, but simply low infant birth weight and malnutrition have left kids underdeveloped from the start of school onward. Throwing money at the problem after the fact is too little too late. From what I have found, this problem is distinct to African Americans and is not linked to prenatal access. i.e. Mexican Americans have lower insurance rates than Caucasians & unexpectedly lower infant mortality rates. This seems to be a Latino phenomenon as Cubans have very low infant mortality in Cuba and even lower (the lowest) among Americans. Something is keeping pregnant African Americans away from prenatal care and this is probably a good portion of the reason for early education shortfalls, lack of interest and focus, etc.

I think lack of nutrition and poor teachers can be overcome in communities that provide a light at the end of the tunnel mentality, but that's just my opinion.

I completely agree with this. But the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. All of that can be (and is) true, but we are still lacking in funds in a lot of areas.

Outdated textbooks, obsolete technology (why are we even using textbooks, every student should have a tablet connected to the school's WiFi network), decaying buildings, and over crowded classrooms.

I'm not at all surprised when the best teachers choose to teach at the best schools.

Your focus on the trees wastes a lot of resources and does more harm than good. You should try understanding the dynamics instead of shooting political pot shots from your hip.

 

[Stoked]

All of that is good and all contributes to fixing the problem. However I cannot see us gettign there without curtailing rights and taking draconian measures.

At what point do the ends no longer justify the means?

 

[SaltyDawg]

Your focus on the trees wastes a lot of resources and does more harm than good. You should try understanding the dynamics instead of shooting political pot shots from your hip.

I'm not focusing on trees. I'm focusing on outdated technology. Tablets are a much, much better tool than an old book that has outdated information, missing pages, scribbles, etc.

This isn't some environmental political pot shot. It's a perfect example of why a lot of schools need more money.

Just like a giant touch screen that is connected to the same network is a much better tool than an old chalkboard.

 

[margodydek]

2 things. First, with regards to the question first posed in the thread: Imagine you're a member of some group or club, for the sake of my audience let's say you're a member of a He-Man Woman Haters Club. First of all you wouldn't allow a non dues paying member to have voting rights. This is why I'm all in favor of having to pay taxes in order to vote. And to take that a step further, I think the more you pay in taxes the more weight your vote should hold. I don't like the idea that Bill Gates' vote can be cancelled out by someone like Precious' mom (although I think we both know who they'd vote for, but you get the point). Secondly, if there was a member of the club who went out and got a girlfriend and started putting up Skeletor posters in the clubhouse, it goes without saying that he'd lose his voting rights and you'd kick him out.

Next point - it looks like the discussion turned towards eduation. If our society wants to fix education, then someone needs to pipe up and tell the parents to step up. I don't care how much money you throw at the problem, nothing's going to work unless the kids are going home to a stable family environment with parents who are involved in their schooling. Same can be said for the opposite: You give a Jewish kid or an Asian kid a tattered 10 yr old textbook, they're still going to ace their midterm.

This is why I hate politics. Long gone are the days of leaders who said what needed to be said, instead we have cowards saying what people want to hear.

 

[Stoked]

2 things. First, with regards to the question first posed in the thread: Imagine you're a member of some group or club, for the sake of my audience let's say you're a member of a He-Man Woman Haters Club. First of all you wouldn't allow a non dues paying member to have voting rights. This is why I'm all in favor of having to pay taxes in order to vote. And to take that a step further, I think the more you pay in taxes the more weight your vote should hold. I don't like the idea that Bill Gates' vote can be cancelled out by someone like Precious' mom (although I think we both know who they'd vote for, but you get the point). Secondly, if there was a member of the club who went out and got a girlfriend and started putting up Skeletor posters in the clubhouse, it goes without saying that he'd lose his voting rights and you'd kick him out.

Next point - it looks like the discussion turned towards eduation. If our society wants to fix education, then someone needs to pipe up and tell the parents to step up. I don't care how much money you throw at the problem, nothing's going to work unless the kids are going home to a stable family environment with parents who are involved in their schooling. Same can be said for the opposite: You give a Jewish kid or an Asian kid a tattered 10 yr old textbook, they're still going to ace their midterm.

This is why I hate politics. Long gone are the days of leaders who said what needed to be said, instead we have cowards saying what people want to hear.

That is where my "draconian measures" comment comes up. Short of forcing parents into that role I do not see it happening.

As for the voting ideas you pitched. That would guarantee that the rich forever control this country.

 

[margodydek]

That is where my "draconian measures" comment comes up. Short of forcing parents into that role I do not see it happening.

As for the voting ideas you pitched. That would guarantee that the rich forever control this country.

My voting ideas were more just tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Stoked]

My voting ideas were more just tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, my bad. Carry on.