Why I think being a Muslim is rational.

[NUMBERICA]

Are they white, delight-some and enticing?

Btw its Houri: its virgin in the way they are pure, dont use the restroom, dont pms etc.

I wouldn't have expected any sexism to rear it's ugly head here. Unusual.

 

[babe]

I guess you're as familiar with Carlin as I am. A great religious philosopher was George. My favorite phrase of his is "those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." If he'd realized how poignant that actually was, he probably never would have said it. But it can be applied in a lot of ways, not the least of which is following a religion or spirituality when others don't understand or think you're crazy.

I'm not actually opposed to religious communities and religious practice. The problem is that there just isn't one that really fits for me. There's no church of process theology, just some academics spread around in various universities. As I said in my conversation with TBS, I've been especially interested in Buddhism lately -- the more I learn, the more I like it. But I still wouldn't call myself a Buddhist, nor would I be comfortable worshipping with Buddhists.

Probably the closest for me would be unitarian universalist services, where they invite people to bring things in from a lot of other traditions. My brother used to go to some UU services with his ex-girlfriend. Not actually sure if there are UU meetings around where I live. I bet there probably are. But living on-campus at CLU is pretty much enough for me.

BTW, while I'm thinking about Buddhism, I really recommend this book. It's by John Cobb, who's a Christian theologian and process thinker. It's about his encounters and conversations with Buddhists and Buddhism... kind of taking the lessons he's learned and applying them back to Christianity. Great for someone like me who's more familiar with Christianity and less so with Buddhism.

(Sorry, I'm an academic, I can't stop myself from recommending books...)

I'd like to know more about this Claremont Lincoln University. I'm driving by some freeway signs once in a while when I'm on I-10 or 210, just Claremont I think. In LA.

Well, I really don't care too much how young and devoted TBS is, it's just good to be able to put together some reasons for believing. I probably don't really care which comes first, the reasons or the believing, either. And it's good to be able to talk through it in a civil manner, too.

Not being able to do any of these can signal some problems, and can cause a lot of wars.

Fact is, having reasons is an admission of the human need to improve upon ourselves, at least in the later stages of development where we start to encounter second thoughts, and need better reasons. . . . .

Actually, in going through some of the material in here, I'm realizing there are a lot more common elements in our beliefs than I ever imagined before.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

I'd like to know more about this Claremont Lincoln University. I'm driving by some freeway signs once in a while when I'm on I-10 or 210, just Claremont I think. In LA.

Well, I really don't care too much how young and devoted TBS is, it's just good to be able to put together some reasons for believing. I probably don't really care which comes first, the reasons or the believing, either. And it's good to be able to talk through it in a civil manner, too.

Not being able to do any of these can signal some problems, and can cause a lot of wars.

Fact is, having reasons is an admission of the human need to improve upon ourselves, at least in the later stages of development where we start to encounter second thoughts, and need better reasons. . . . .

Actually, in going through some of the material in here, I'm realizing there are a lot more common elements in our beliefs than I ever imagined before.

As far as CLU goes... it's been interesting. It's very new. It only technically began existing this year. I had to apply for Claremont School of Theology (CST), but then when I got in, I got to choose whether I'd be affiliated with CST or CLU -- the latter being a multireligious university, and the former more like a traditional Christian seminary. But for now, CLU and CST are both in the same physical place, happening in the whole incestuous Claremont colleges area (Pomona, Claremont Graduate University, Scripps, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Pitzer, etc.). They're all very near each other, and typically it's not too difficult to take a class in one of the neighboring universities and count it toward your degree (particularly in the case of CST, CGU, and CLU, which sometimes feel like the exact same thing).

And because it is so new, a lot of it really isn't where we'd like it to be yet. We're still in the process of forming official relationships with other churches and universities, and then bringing in faculty to teach courses on those faiths and such. Obviously Christianity is a big presence already. I know we have agreements in place now with Muslims and Jains. But there's still not as many course offerings in diverse religious areas as I'd like to see.

Anyway, he's a good 7-minute news bit on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0J1Orh-hFQ

It's weird watching the video, because I know so many of these people personally now. The guy in the purple robe on the left at 35 seconds is Dr. Faber, my advisor, with whom I've taken three classes. The dean, Philip Clayton, is a process guy... I've read a few of his books. The bald guy talking at 2:45 is a fellow student I've hung around with him a bit (I exposed him to some anime). The black woman at 3:55 is Dr. Coleman, another process scholar who taught a Whitehead class last semester.

The video does sensationalize the criticism part a bit, though. Outside of this report, I haven't really heard any. Also, at the end, the guys says that they're "talking about enrolling Jains, Buddhists, and Hindus." That makes it sound like their admission criteria is more limited than it actually is. I know at least one Buddhist student here already... she even does the whole shaved head and red robes thing, hard to miss her. And heck, they admitted me, and I didn't pretend to be anything other than an agnostic process thinker.

Anyway, there is also, of course, the official website's "about" page:

https://www.claremontlincoln.org/about/

 

[babe]

Thank you.

I listened through a few times, and looked at the site. Next time I'm in the neighborhood, I'll come take a look. The bald guy sorta looks like my cousin who was raised Methodist. Frank or Joe I'm not sure which. . . . Well, they looked the same, and it's been a while. But he was a Physicist at Stanford.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

As far as CLU goes... it's been interesting. It's very new. It only technically began existing this year. I had to apply for Claremont School of Theology (CST), but then when I got in, I got to choose whether I'd be affiliated with CST or CLU -- the latter being a multireligious university, and the former more like a traditional Christian seminary. But for now, CLU and CST are both in the same physical place, happening in the whole incestuous Claremont colleges area (Pomona, Claremont Graduate University, Scripps, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Pitzer, etc.). They're all very near each other, and typically it's not too difficult to take a class in one of the neighboring universities and count it toward your degree (particularly in the case of CST, CGU, and CLU, which sometimes feel like the exact same thing).

And because it is so new, a lot of it really isn't where we'd like it to be yet. We're still in the process of forming official relationships with other churches and universities, and then bringing in faculty to teach courses on those faiths and such. Obviously Christianity is a big presence already. I know we have agreements in place now with Muslims and Jains. But there's still not as many course offerings in diverse religious areas as I'd like to see.

Anyway, he's a good 7-minute news bit on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0J1Orh-hFQ

It's weird watching the video, because I know so many of these people personally now. The guy in the purple robe on the left at 35 seconds is Dr. Faber, my advisor, with whom I've taken three classes. The dean, Philip Clayton, is a process guy... I've read a few of his books. The bald guy talking at 2:45 is a fellow student I've hung around with him a bit (I exposed him to some anime). The black woman at 3:55 is Dr. Coleman, another process scholar who taught a Whitehead class last semester.

The video does sensationalize the criticism part a bit, though. Outside of this report, I haven't really heard any. Also, at the end, the guys says that they're "talking about enrolling Jains, Buddhists, and Hindus." That makes it sound like their admission criteria is more limited than it actually is. I know at least one Buddhist student here already... she even does the whole shaved head and red robes thing, hard to miss her. And heck, they admitted me, and I didn't pretend to be anything other than an agnostic process thinker.

Anyway, there is also, of course, the official website's "about" page:

https://www.claremontlincoln.org/about/

Gotta be the Muslim who says "I actually hope there is conflict"

 

[AtheistPreacher]

Gotta be the Muslim who says "I actually hope there is conflict"

Haha, yeah, well, she does have a point and I agree with it. Pretending we don't have any real differences and "trying to out-nice one another" generally doesn't get us anywhere as far as actually understanding one another.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

While religion itself is full of irrational beliefs (e.g., angel with a flaming sword, riding a horse into the sky, dead people coming back to life, I mean, really???), religious adherence itself is highly rational. It fills a variety of deep-seated human needs, including providing clarity and hope to believers in an otherwise chaotic and uncertain world.

Islam, in my opinion, is no less rational, and its beliefs no less irrational, than Christianity.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

while religion itself is full of irrational beliefs (e.g., angel with a flaming sword, riding a horse into the sky, dead people coming back to life, i mean, really???), religious adherence itself is highly rational. It fills a variety of deep-seated human needs, including providing clarity and hope to believers in an otherwise chaotic and uncertain world.

Islam, in my opinion, is no less rational, and its beliefs no less irrational, than christianity.

qft.

 

[Siro]

While religion itself is full of irrational beliefs (e.g., angel with a flaming sword, riding a horse into the sky, dead people coming back to life, I mean, really???), religious adherence itself is highly rational. It fills a variety of deep-seated human needs, including providing clarity and hope to believers in an otherwise chaotic and uncertain world.

Islam, in my opinion, is no less rational, and its beliefs no less irrational, than Christianity.

I think that's a typical abuse of the concept of "human nature" which people use to explain whatever people do. However, the claim offers no true explanation. If we are to accept something as part of "human nature" then it must apply to all healthy humans. You cannot be indoctrinated into feeling hunger, neither can you leave sleeping behind. I do not have religious faith. Neither do 10s (possibly 100s) of millions of people world wide. I am perfectly happy with my life. And I'm pretty sure that I'm a human.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

I think that's a typical abuse of the concept of "human nature" which people use to explain whatever people do. However, the claim offers no true explanation. If we are to accept something as part of "human nature" then it must apply to all healthy humans. You cannot be indoctrinated into feeling hunger, neither can you leave sleeping behind. I do not have religious faith. Neither do 10s (possibly 100s) of millions of people world wide. I am perfectly happy with my life. And I'm pretty sure that I'm a human.

"To be human is to be inhabited by existential faith... Scientists and secularists do not simply live 'above faith.' Each contemporary scientist draws an elements of faith into his or her craft, even when it is tied to closely specified regimes of evidence. It might be the faith that the world conforms in the last instance to laws articulable in principle by human beings." -William Connolly, Pluralism (2005)

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I think that's a typical abuse of the concept of "human nature" which people use to explain whatever people do. However, the claim offers no true explanation. If we are to accept something as part of "human nature" then it must apply to all healthy humans. You cannot be indoctrinated into feeling hunger, neither can you leave sleeping behind. I do not have religious faith. Neither do 10s (possibly 100s) of millions of people world wide. I am perfectly happy with my life. And I'm pretty sure that I'm a human.

I do not agree. People are indoctrinated into particular belief systems, not into 'belief' per se. The basic human need is not for a particular religious dogma but for comfort, clarity, understanding, knowledge, etc. People who don't fill these needs with religion (and not everyone does) fill them in other ways. Religion is just one method, albeit a very prominent method, of meeting these basic human needs.

Still, if religion, or belief in Gods, or whatever we call it, didn't serve some very fundamental, basic human need, I'm hard pressed to account for its pervasive occurrence in every culture and in every epoch of human history.

 

[Siro]

"To be human is to be inhabited by existential faith... Scientists and secularists do not simply live 'above faith.' Each contemporary scientist draws an elements of faith into his or her craft, even when it is tied to closely specified regimes of evidence. It might be the faith that the world conforms in the last instance to laws articulable in principle by human beings." -William Connolly, Pluralism (2005)

That is broad enough a definition to be completely useless. I've had many discussions that included "so don't you believe the sun will rise tomorrow?". Obviously human cognition is strongly based on future planning, which cannot possibly be totally divorced from "faith". But one word can express more than one idea, as is the case here. I do not have faith that sun will rise tomorrow. I know why it rises every morning, and my experience confirms the theory. I expect it to rise tomorrow due to the understood mechanism and humanities shared experience that extends back as far as the written record. That is a completely different concept from religious faith, which means accepting something regardless of evidence for or against it.