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Why not just let Israel go for it and put an end to the nonsense?

karpasov said:
Obviously the leaders of the Gaza civilians, Hamas, are terrorizing their people. They are the no. 1 cause for suppression and civil rights violations in Gaza. They kill much more civilians than the Israelis do.
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Oh my. Why is it that even the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs and B'tselem (an Israeli human rights NGO) report FAR greater Palestinian than Israeli civilian casualties? It's not even close. Not remotely.

What the ****?
 
franklin said:
Arafat was offered the West Bank, Gaza, and most of Jerusalem. He refused and Palestinian suicide bombings continued. There is going to be less and less land for a Palestinian state the longer they hold out and rain terror into Israel.
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"Refused" is a strong word. Negotiations continued until Israeli elections, at which point they were suspended, with both parties stating that an agreement was closer than ever. Should Arafat have accepted? With the luxury of hindsight, and the reality that has been Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu, absolutely. At the time of the suspension of talks, however, Arafat was still winning concessions, and apparently didn't think the outcome of the Israeli election would have a significant effect on that momentum. He was wrong, but he didn't simply "refuse".
 
GVC. . . . .

you gotta learn to question news sources a little, no matter who they are.

The claim by the Israelis and their sympathizers is that Hamas missiles are launched. . . . not from the open fields that are claimed to exist around the people's dwelling places and business places, but from bunkers Hamas builds in the center of the the very most densely populated spots, with bomb-hardened bunkers only Hamas personnel can enter. No effort is made by Hamas sto protect their own people, and they are in fact brazenly used as a sort of "human shielf" for their launching sites. Further, it is claimed by the Israelis that they give advance warning to the people of impending retaliatory strikes on thses bunkers, asking the Palestininans to please clear away. . . .

The emotional value of the the word "refused" in this case is actually irrelevant. The refusal is the fact, regardless of the context or intentions of Arafat. . . . just logic, kid. It a computer byte with a value of 0 or 1, that's all.
 
babe said:
GVC. . . . .

you gotta learn to question news sources a little, no matter who they are.

The claim by the Israelis and their sympathizers is that Hamas missiles are launched. . . . not from the open fields that are claimed to exist around the people's dwelling places and business places, but from bunkers Hamas builds in the center of the the very most densely populated spots, with bomb-hardened bunkers only Hamas personnel can enter. No effort is made by Hamas sto protect their own people, and they are in fact brazenly used as a sort of "human shielf" for their launching sites. Further, it is claimed by the Israelis that they give advance warning to the people of impending retaliatory strikes on thses bunkers, asking the Palestininans to please clear away. . . .

The emotional value of the the word "refused" in this case is actually irrelevant. The refusal is the fact, regardless of the context or intentions of Arafat. . . . just logic, kid. It a computer byte with a value of 0 or 1, that's all.
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1. Hamas's tactics don't change the fact that the Palestinian civilian body count exceeds the Israeli civilian body count by a retarded amount. The context of those numbers is another matter entirely; one which I wasn't addressing. My post was a response to Karpasov's ridiculously false claim (and nothing else).

2. Emotional value? I'm adding context (isn't that what you were doing in your post above?). Negotiations were ongoing. Did Arafat reject some proposals? Absolutely. Did he make a strategic error? Yes (with the benefit of hindsight). Did he walk away from the table entirely? No.
 
GVC said:
1. Hamas's tactics don't change the fact that the Palestinian civilian body count exceeds the Israeli civilian body count by a retarded amount. The context of those numbers is another matter entirely; one which I wasn't addressing. My post was a response to Karpasov's ridiculously false claim (and nothing else).

2. Emotional value? I'm adding context (isn't that what you were doing in your post above?). Negotiations were ongoing. Did Arafat reject some proposals? Absolutely. Did he make a strategic error? Yes (with the benefit of hindsight). Did he walk away from the table entirely? No.
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If a person attacks you with intent to kill ineptly are you required to pull your punches? I think not.
 
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GVC said:
1. Hamas's tactics don't change the fact that the Palestinian civilian body count exceeds the Israeli civilian body count by a retarded amount. The context of those numbers is another matter entirely; one which I wasn't addressing. My post was a response to Karpasov's ridiculously false claim (and nothing else).
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ever been to israel?
do you know they have bomb shelters.
thats why the civilian body count is so low.
because israel invested in defense.
defense = bomb shelters
 
GVC, my claim was mainly: Hamas has responsibility for Palestinian suffering as well as the Israeli govermant. I'm trying to examine the situation from rational perspective. Anyway, since we are here, Palestinians and Israelis suffering day by day, I think anyone who critisis us must suggest an alternative. I remind you all that Israel dud withdraw from Gaxa and left it completly under independent Palestinian regime. Also, that Hamas got milions of $ to buuld bomb shelters fir the general public, sadly, they did not built even one. Only bought more weapons. Again, Neteniahu is a bug jerk too because he do not try to partner with more moderate Abu Mazen, the president of Palestinian authority..
 
karpasov said:
GVC, my claim was mainly: Hamas has responsibility for Palestinian suffering as well as the Israeli govermant. I'm trying to examine the situation from rational perspective. Anyway, since we are here, Palestinians and Israelis suffering day by day, I think anyone who critisis us must suggest an alternative. I remind you all that Israel dud withdraw from Gaxa and left it completly under independent Palestinian regime. Also, that Hamas got milions of $ to buuld bomb shelters fir the general public, sadly, they did not built even one. Only bought more weapons. Again, Neteniahu is a bug jerk too because he do not try to partner with more moderate Abu Mazen, the president of Palestinian authority..
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Unfortunately people do not want rational perspective or discussion. They want to crucify Israel or bomb Palestine.
 
franklin said:
Chasing our tails around in circles isn't helping either.
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If the chase is circular, I agree. The goal should be to get a spiral, where the chase gradually ramps down in intensity. That's much more realistic than finding a quick solution.
 
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