WI Gubernatorial Recall

[candrew]

"Best of all, the myth that union bosses represent their members’ interests has been exposed as a lie. Now that union dues are voluntary, tens of thousands of union members have stopped paying them. Membership in the Wisconsin chapter of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees union (AFSCME) has dropped by half. Membership in the state’s American Federation of Teachers (AFT) is down by over a third. Given unions’ influential role in most elections, the national implications of this trend are staggering."

So Walker busts the union, membership falls, and that's your validation that unions were never any good to begin with.


Good stuff man. Keep up the deep thoughts.

 

[Scat]

So Walker busts the union, membership falls, and that's your validation that unions were never any good to begin with.

I don't recall him saying that unions were never good to begin with.

Unions are outdated, top heavy, and while they served a much needed purpose, that purpose is no longer there. Basically, they are dying.

 

[green]

So Walker busts the union, membership falls, and that's your validation that unions were never any good to begin with.


Good stuff man. Keep up the deep thoughts.

Typical left wing crap. Go back and re-read my posts. Unions were essential before people like you took control of them. Now unions, like I said, are modern day mafia's. They just bully people around.

 

[Scat]

Unions are equalizers in the job market.

Job market equalizers? Which job market? The current one where people in the private sector are dealing with unpaid furlough, pay decreases, pay freezes, reduction in benefits & even being laid off? Unions cry if their members are asked to take a pay freeze for one year let alone any of the other concessions that I mentioned. Unions are no longer job market equalizers but rather job market destroyers.

 

[GVC]

It's worth pointing out that unions operate in the private sector as well (and compete against non-union firms).

 

[candrew]

Typical left wing crap. Go back and re-read my posts. Unions were essential before people like you took control of them. Now unions, like I said, are modern day mafia's. They just bully people around.

So you mean they're like the mafia in a good way?

Look, I'm not here to discuss the history of unions - not interested. But I do find it humorous that people leaving the union after gutting it makes you think that particular union was no good to begin with.

I can't spell it out for you any better than that.

 

[Scat]

It's worth pointing out that unions operate in the private sector as well (and compete against non-union firms).

True. I have a friend that worked for UPS about 20 years ago. He said that every 3 years the union would target one of the big package delivery companies and make some demand that had to be met or they would call a strike. One particular year it was UPS' turn to be targeted. At the time UPS had the highest pay and best benefits so there was really nothing to demand. What did the union come up with? UPS had to provide lumbar support in all their delivery trucks for their drivers or they would strike. My friend said that it wasn't about fair pay and compensation but rather power. The union had to show UPS they had the power. Of course this was a relatively modest demand so UPS gave all of their drivers a lumbar pillow to place on their seat if they wanted and the dog and pony show was over for the year.

 

[GVC]

I don't want to get dragged into a stupid argument with ideologues, so I'll keep this short.

There are benefits to organized labor that some choose to ignore. I worked in a union sheet metal shop for a little while, and it wasn't a coincidence that local businesses turned to us when they needed high quality, custom work (especially if they had stainless steel jobs). There were plenty of non-union shops to choose from, but they mostly did ****ty, low-skill work around town (we got plenty of calls to fix their mistakes when ignorant business owners hired these shops to do more intricate work).

This is largely due to economies of scale created by organized labor. With all the union shops in the area pooling resources to train their new employees, we were much more proficient. Further, with a more rigorous screening process to enter an apprenticeship, and a more honest, cooperative workplace (along with great benefits creating an incentive to work hard), good people were hired and stayed on.

Does it work this way all the time? Of course not, but organized labor isn't the cosa nostra in all cases either.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume green doesn't have nearly the same misgivings about the ridiculous amount of collusion among business owners and executives.

 

[green]

I don't want to get dragged into a stupid argument with ideologues, so I'll keep this short.

There are benefits to organized labor that some choose to ignore. I worked in a union sheet metal shop for a little while, and it wasn't a coincidence that local businesses turned to us when they needed high quality, custom work (especially if they had stainless steel jobs). There were plenty of non-union shops to choose from, but they mostly did ****ty, low-skill work around town (we got plenty of calls to fix their mistakes when ignorant business owners hired these shops to do more intricate work).

This is largely due to economies of scale created by organized labor. With all the union shops in the area pooling resources to train their new employees, we were much more proficient. Further, with a more rigorous screening process to enter an apprenticeship, and a more honest, cooperative workplace (along with great benefits creating an incentive to work hard), good people were hired and stayed on.

Does it work this way all the time? Of course not, but organized labor isn't the cosa nostra in all cases either.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume green doesn't have nearly the same misgivings about the ridiculous amount of collusion among business owners and executives.

There is nothing wrong with that. I have no problem with people who do a better job getting paid more. It is what America is. The problem is to accomplish what you described, you argue that unions are the only way. This is not true. If there were no unions, you could still go out, make a name for yourself, charge more for better work and be wildly successful. You don't need a union to do this. My problem is the union forcing themselves on the market which drives up costs for everyone and artificially inflates the market.

Unions are very anti-capatalistic and very monopolistic. Look at education. Our quality of teacher has fallen because there is a monopoly on teachers and the unions control the monopoly. Instead of taking advanced math, science and English courses, our teachers in training are taking "how to make a fat kid not feel bad about being fat but instead blame republicans" courses.

 

[GVC]

you argue that unions are the only way.

Uh, no I didn't. I argued that unions are one way to take advantage of economies of scale (among other things).

My problem is the union forcing themselves on the market which drives up costs for everyone and artificially inflates the market.

Eh? There were plenty of non-union shops in town. We competed with them.

Unions are very anti-capatalistic and very monopolistic.

I think you might find, if you actually cared to look, that corporations are rife with collusion, and thus fit the same descriptors you've used for unions.

I'm convinced you didn't even read my post. Bravo, moron. Done with this.

 

[One Brow]

Look what has happened in WI once Walker allowed unions to be voluntary:

Are we supposed to be surprised that people are choosing short-term gains over longer-term gains? Corporations count on people making short-sighted choices.

 

[One Brow]

Unions cry if their members are asked to take a pay freeze for one year let alone any of the other concessions that I mentioned.

That's what they are supposed to do, and why they can be equalizers. One individual can't make a difference the way an organized group can.