Bawse Dawg
Well-Known Member
Add Hayward, minus Wes on Portland and they are a worse team.
Add Wes, minus Hayward on the Jazz, and they are a worse team.
Add Wes, minus Hayward on the Jazz, and they are a worse team.
Would you rather have Hayward or Matthews?
- Thread starter l Abach l
- Start date
MVP
Well-Known Member
Yup, Hayward is getting torn by anybody he plays. Yesterday Matthews tore him a nice one as well.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Hate people who ignore the facts, and ignore all the situations that make up all the facts, and when they are educated on the facts continue to dismiss them, because they go against your uneducated beliefs.
MVP
Well-Known Member
Disagree. Jazz would be more effective team with Wes due to less turnovers and more effective shooting. Few more assists Hayward makes does not offset his bricks and turnovers.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
What does that even mean?
UGLI baby
Well-Known Member
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
And hoopshype.com rounded it to 7million, but yes basically around 7 million.
l Abach l
Well-Known Member
Okay, then by your standards of how people should interpret stats WHY does Hayward rank among the top 3 wing players in turnovers this season? Because evidently AKMVP and I are ignoring all the situations that go into that fact. And what situation are we ignoring that influences Hayward to shoot 39% and 28% from 3 this year? Please enlighten us with your basketball knowledge that we are dismissing.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
This is what I'm talking about. I explained that and your still asking for an explanation. So it's time for me to stop posting for a while. I can't handle you idiots!
Like I said before... Can someone direct me to the intelligent part of jazzfanz. I'm making a self imposed ban for a while!
Have at it guys
l Abach l
Well-Known Member
Haha! Your response to why Hayward has a lot of turnovers: "Hayward is more inclined to be torn over prone with how the jazz play him due how long Hayward is". What the hell does that even mean? You sound like the coach from Waterboy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3wuSO59OdM . You never explained his poor shooting percentages this season either.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Disagree. Hayward is atrocious scoring off the dribble. His pull up is junk and he can't finish at the rim. His first step and handle are also poor. He should not have the ball in his hands.
It's also clear that if you were to force Wes into Hayward's role on this Jazz team, his numbers would look terrible. If Gordo were in Portland, spotting up with loads of space/time, he'd be shooting as he has in years past (seriously, dude was one of the best spot up shooters in the league last year). Defensively, Wes has the edge.
I still think the Jazz should be looking to move Gordo if they think he's going to get paid in the summer. If he continues to play the way he has to this point though, I don't see why anyone would give him $8mm/year, and the Jazz are probably better of holding onto him.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Several people have. You apparently can't read. Shooting wide open spot up jumpers is a hell of a lot easier than shooting off the dribble. How do you explain how well he shot from outside through his first 3 seasons?
i hate this thread
New Member
Long time lurker, just saw this idiotic thread and decided to post.
First off, this isn't true. I guess it's true if you don't consider Rudy Gay, LeBron, Wade, Monta Ellis, or Durant as "wings;" all of which have higher TOs per game than Hayward. The whole notion that 3 TOs a game is bad for someone who is trying to facilitate the offense is laughable. I'm not saying 3 TOs is something to aim for, obviously less is better, but it isn't as horrible as people want to make it.
Back on the topic of the thread, as someone else put it: it entirely depends on the role they play within the roster. Just because players play the same position does not make them comparable. You wouldn't compare Favors to Ryan Anderson just because they both play PF (though Favors more C this year but I digress). Matthews is an elite 3-and-D guy, but not much more. The amount of attention the defense pays to Matthews is entirely dependent on the players around him. If you watched any games last year this should be obvious, Hayward was the third (maybe 4th) option on the team (see: Wesley Matthews) and saw a lot of open looks. His efficiency was very good and people gushed about the way he played. Fast forward a year, he's the #1 option on a bad team and people want to kill him for being inefficient. A few people on this board seem blind to what is really happening on the floor, sure the Jazz suck and look Hayward is having a bad game, must be his fault. The truth is somewhere in the middle, sure Hayward has not been shooting well, but he has been the opposition's #1 player to shut down and he doesn't have the supporting cast to help him.
The era of basketball being defined purely by per game stats and percentages is gone. If you don't understand the surrounding circumstances (coach, roster, front office, opposition) then you really aren't seeing the whole picture.
First off, this isn't true. I guess it's true if you don't consider Rudy Gay, LeBron, Wade, Monta Ellis, or Durant as "wings;" all of which have higher TOs per game than Hayward. The whole notion that 3 TOs a game is bad for someone who is trying to facilitate the offense is laughable. I'm not saying 3 TOs is something to aim for, obviously less is better, but it isn't as horrible as people want to make it.
Back on the topic of the thread, as someone else put it: it entirely depends on the role they play within the roster. Just because players play the same position does not make them comparable. You wouldn't compare Favors to Ryan Anderson just because they both play PF (though Favors more C this year but I digress). Matthews is an elite 3-and-D guy, but not much more. The amount of attention the defense pays to Matthews is entirely dependent on the players around him. If you watched any games last year this should be obvious, Hayward was the third (maybe 4th) option on the team (see: Wesley Matthews) and saw a lot of open looks. His efficiency was very good and people gushed about the way he played. Fast forward a year, he's the #1 option on a bad team and people want to kill him for being inefficient. A few people on this board seem blind to what is really happening on the floor, sure the Jazz suck and look Hayward is having a bad game, must be his fault. The truth is somewhere in the middle, sure Hayward has not been shooting well, but he has been the opposition's #1 player to shut down and he doesn't have the supporting cast to help him.
The era of basketball being defined purely by per game stats and percentages is gone. If you don't understand the surrounding circumstances (coach, roster, front office, opposition) then you really aren't seeing the whole picture.
l Abach l
Well-Known Member
I have to disagree with you on this. Hayward hasn't changed from shooting spot up 3 pointers from last year to this year. He isn't shooting 3 pointers off the dribble. That being said, last year through 21 games, he had 67 3PA shooting 32% (https://www.basketball-reference.com) and this year though 21 games he has had 78 3PA shooting 28%.
As far as the shooting off the dribble... Take a look at these:
https://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=202330&Season=2012-13
https://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=202330
His most efficient shots last year were from 3 ball land, which AREN'T off dribble shots. This year, his most efficient shooting has been from the 8-16 ft range, which typically are off-dribble shots. The only explanation is that he's playing bad basketball now... Shooting off balance shots isn't an excuse, because it's irrelevant in Hayward's case.
GVC
Well-Known Member
For those who can't follow the pull up v. spot up argument, here are a couple links:
Spot up: Link
Pull up: Link
Spot up: Through last night's games, there are 60 players in the NBA who average 4+ spot ups and played 10+ games. The mean eFG% for those 60 on spot ups is .548.
Pull up: Through last night's games, there are 60 players in the NBA who average 4.5+ pull ups and played 10+ games. The mean eFG% for those 60 on pull ups is .403.
It should be pointed out that last season, roughly 40% of halfcourt possessions (not including shots off O-boards) ended in a shot from a post up, an iso or by the pick and roll ball handler. That held true for even the best offenses in the league. That is to say, you can't just get spot up shots every time down the court; they have to be created by other players, through lower percentage plays (absent a pass to wide open shooters). Comparing raw shooting percentages of players who sit in the corner and only shoot wide open 3s to those who are being counted on to create for others is stupid. End of story.
Spot up: Link
Pull up: Link
Spot up: Through last night's games, there are 60 players in the NBA who average 4+ spot ups and played 10+ games. The mean eFG% for those 60 on spot ups is .548.
Pull up: Through last night's games, there are 60 players in the NBA who average 4.5+ pull ups and played 10+ games. The mean eFG% for those 60 on pull ups is .403.
It should be pointed out that last season, roughly 40% of halfcourt possessions (not including shots off O-boards) ended in a shot from a post up, an iso or by the pick and roll ball handler. That held true for even the best offenses in the league. That is to say, you can't just get spot up shots every time down the court; they have to be created by other players, through lower percentage plays (absent a pass to wide open shooters). Comparing raw shooting percentages of players who sit in the corner and only shoot wide open 3s to those who are being counted on to create for others is stupid. End of story.
GVC
Well-Known Member
You don't have a clue.
Do you actually think Gordo isn't being asked to create more off the dribble this year than last? Do you actually think that there are other players drawing attention away from Gordo, and then passing to him for open 3s? Have you watched a single game this season?
l Abach l
Well-Known Member
Yes I have. I've watched a lot of them actually. All I said was that I respectfully disagree. From the games that I've watched this season, Hayward's 3 point shot looks haven't been different than last year's 3 point loos he had. I don't think that asking him to create more this year should correlate with his decline in 3pt fg%...
GVC
Well-Known Member
Yikes.
Last year Hayward shot 43.5 % on FG, 41.5 % on 3pt shooting. Matthews was 43.6 % on FG and 39.6 % on 3pt shooting. The year before Hayward was 45.6 % FG and 34.6% 3pt. Matthews was 41.2 % FG and 38.3 % 3pt.
Matthews is tearing it up, but its only been 1/4 of the way through the season, and he is a 3rd option on a good team. Hayward has been inconsistent, and at times bad, but he has been the first and possibly only real option for much of the season on a bad team.
All in all they are pretty close, and have different strengths/weaknesses. I like Haywards upside and think he will improve. Matthews is a great role player who plays good defense, but he is in his prime right now and is a great fit in Portland.
Matthews is tearing it up, but its only been 1/4 of the way through the season, and he is a 3rd option on a good team. Hayward has been inconsistent, and at times bad, but he has been the first and possibly only real option for much of the season on a bad team.
All in all they are pretty close, and have different strengths/weaknesses. I like Haywards upside and think he will improve. Matthews is a great role player who plays good defense, but he is in his prime right now and is a great fit in Portland.