Wow. Cougar fans aren't going to like this......

[Duck Rodgers]

Look at it like this, if the SLC area is 40 minutes away fromt he BYU campus, and not even all the mormons in the SLC area are BYU fans, why on earth would anyone expect all the mormons hundreds, or even thousands of miles away to be BYU fans?

I'd also point out that the PAC 10 schools have no trouble selling football tickets. They don;t care if there are a couple hundred BYU fans that would buy tickets to their games. They are looking for more tv markets. Adding a couple hundred tv viewers in a city of 1 million + people is not significant enough to worry about.

Then you get into the academics where BYU isn't a major research institution, and isn't a memor of the AAU.

It just wasn't worth it for the PAC 10 to consider adding BYU. And as long as they won't play on Sundays, it probably won't be worth it for the Big 12 either.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. As a person that has been to more USC games than BYU games over the last decade, I will say that The Pac 10 and Utah share some things in common. When they announce their attendance at stadiums as being sold out and you're sitting there in the ****ing crowd and half the building is empty, it makes you laugh like nothing you have ever experienced.

Salty, you guys are getting an upgraded paycheck. I don't what to hear anything else about your move to the Pac 10. USC runs that conference. Period. Everybody else is riding coattails, now including Utah.

 

[colton]

Look at it like this, if the SLC area is 40 minutes away fromt he BYU campus, and not even all the mormons in the SLC area are BYU fans, why on earth would anyone expect all the mormons hundreds, or even thousands of miles away to be BYU fans?

What percentage of BYU students are from Salt Lake? What percentage are from Utah? I don't know the statistics, but anecdotally I would guess that probably only 40% of BYU students are even from Utah. If most of the BYU graduates are not from Utah, then it seems logical to suppose that BYU might have a lot of fans outside the state. (Whether or not that's important from the networks' standpoint, I don't know.)

 

[bordelais7]

What percentage of BYU students are from Salt Lake? What percentage are from Utah? I don't know the statistics, but anecdotally I would guess that probably only 40% of BYU students are even from Utah. If most of the BYU graduates are not from Utah, then it seems logical to suppose that BYU might have a lot of fans outside the state. (Whether or not that's important from the networks' standpoint, I don't know.)

According to the schools' websites, the percentage of students coming from within the state is:
BYU: 32%
UofU: 85%

 

[inoshishi]

ASU, OSU, and WSU. Do some research, Son.

I went to graduate school in engineering at a PAC-10 school. I assure you, ASU, OSU, and WSU are all more respected research institutions than BYU. Much more.

BYU is well respected in undergraduate education, accounting, and law, but none of those areas do much research. Sorry.

I have tabulated the rankings in several categories (according to US News). BYU does not fare too favorably compared to the current and future PAC-10 schools:

Engineering Graduate School Rankings:

2. Stanford
3. California
10. USC
15. UCLA
28. Washington
39. Colorado
44. Arizona State
51. Arizona
63. Utah
76. Washington
85. Oregon State
102. BYU
no program: Oregon.

Biological Sciences Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
2. California
15. Washington
24. UCLA
30. Colorado
34. Arizona
46. USC
56. Arizona State
56. Oregon
56. Utah
71. Oregon State
100. Washington State
144. BYU

Physics Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
5. California
19. Colorado
19. UCLA
19. Washington
36. Arizona
48. Arizona State
52. USC
57. Oregon
63. Utah
77. Oregon State
77. Washington State
102. BYU

Chemistry Graduate School Rankings:
1. California
4. Stanford
16. UCLA
26. Colorado
26. Washington
36. Utah
38. Arizona
53. Oregon
53. USC
60. Arizona State
74. Oregon State
78. Washington State
107. BYU

Computer Science Graduate School Rankings:
1. California
1. Stanford
7. Washington
14. UCLA
20. USC
39. Colorado
39. Utah
47. Arizona
53. Arizona State
63. Oregon
63. Oregon State
79. Washington State
91. BYU

Economics Graduate School Rankings:
5. Stanford
6. California
14. UCLA
34. Washington
39. Arizona
39. Arizona State
50. Colorado
50. USC
no rank: Oregon
no rank: Oregon State
no rank: Utah
no rank: Washington State
no program: BYU

Political Science Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
6. California
11. UCLA
26. Washington
39. Colorado
46. Arizona
51. Arizona State
no rank: Oregon
no rank: USC
no rank: Utah
no rank: Washington State
no program: BYU
no program: Oregon State

Undergraduate Rankings:
4. Stanford
21. California
24. UCLA
26. USC
42. Washington
71. Brigham Young
77. Colorado
102. Arizona
106. Washington State
115. Oregon
121. Arizona State
126. Utah
Tier 3. Oregon State

You may think that academics played no part in this decision if you wish, but the fact of the matter is when comparing the 13 schools above, BYU comes in a distant 13th as a research institution.

 

[SaltyDawg]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. As a person that has been to more USC games than BYU games over the last decade, I will say that The Pac 10 and Utah share some things in common. When they announce their attendance at stadiums as being sold out and you're sitting there in the ****ing crowd and half the building is empty, it makes you laugh like nothing you have ever experienced.

Salty, you guys are getting an upgraded paycheck. I don't what to hear anything else about your move to the Pac 10. USC runs that conference. Period. Everybody else is riding coattails, now including Utah.

I've been to my share of USC games too. I think the stadium being in a neighborhood where you don't walk around by yourself after dark might play a part in that. It doesn't matter though, the fact of the matter is they are selling out their games, and aren't looking for ways to sell more tickets. And even if they were concerned about people buying tickets and not showing up, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that adding BYU would equate to more people that buy tickets actually showing up to the games.

And USC may run the conference now, but they certainly didn't rule the conference 10 years ago. And with the penalties the NCAA just slapped down on them, they likely won't rule the conference in 2 years either.

What percentage of BYU students are from Salt Lake? What percentage are from Utah? I don't know the statistics, but anecdotally I would guess that probably only 40% of BYU students are even from Utah. If most of the BYU graduates are not from Utah, then it seems logical to suppose that BYU might have a lot of fans outside the state. (Whether or not that's important from the networks' standpoint, I don't know.)

I don't see how the percentage of people from Salt Lake matters. If the argument is, "2% of the nation are LDS, therefore BYU has a huge national fanbase..." and I point out that "Plenty of the LDS people within 40 minutes of the BYU campus flat out hate BYU, so I don't see why the LDS people 1000 miles away should automatically be considered fans..." Then why does it matter the percentage of BYU students from Utah?

What are the percentage of residents that live in PAC 12 areas (excluding Utah, since your post seems to be saying the Utah residents aren't that important or something) that went to BYU? I'm guessing that number is going to be so low that it is not significant. So the argument has to be that LDS people in general will root for BYU, and not only BYU grads, otherwise it makes no sense to even bring it up. And as I pointed out, there are plenty of LDS people in the SLC area, 40 minutes away from the BYU campus, that flat out hate BYU. So it would be foolish to assume most LDS people hundreds or even thousands of miles away are automatically BYU fans just because they are LDS.

If the argument is that BYU grads will generally be BYU fans, then I absolutely agree. But if that is the argument, then what does "2% of the nation is LDS..." have to do with it?

 

[CONAN]

this was discussed earlier: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php/112-Utah-to-the-Pac-10-MWC-to-get-BCS-game/page2
there are links with all kinds of "filters" to determine what schools fall into what categories, I'm not sure where the particular schools you mentioned would fall

just for you Conan, I'll repeat myself - - using this link: https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/institution.php
here is how some schools are categorized






see the difference?

for an explanation of some of these terms, use this link:
https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/descriptions/grad_program.php
(the bottom line is that STEM is a more limited range of PhD programs...)

Thanks, Moe.

 

[CONAN]

I don't think it's discrimination at all for the Pac-10 not to have BYU in the fold. If they brought in BYU they'd have lawsuits galore when non-Mormon Pac-10 kids had to pay more to go to BYU. I'm not familiar with Pac-10 constitution but I'm sure there's something in there about discriminatory tuition with regards to religion.

I'm fine with BYU not being in the Pac-10. Not a big deal really. But call it whatever you want whether that be a business decision or bigotry or whatever but the bottom line is academics has very little to do with BYU not being there. We all know it's about religion whether you haters want to admit to it or not. In fact, if BYU wasn't a Mormon school I doubt a lot of you haters would even exist.

Now go hug your third place trophy.

 

[moevillini]

just for the sake of comparison...

University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame, Indiana

Level 4-year or above
Control Private not-for-profit
Enrollment 11,479

Classification Category
Undergraduate Instructional Program: Bal/HGC: Balanced arts & sciences/professions, high graduate coexistence
Graduate Instructional Program: CompDoc/NMedVet: Comprehensive doctoral (no medical/veterinary)
Enrollment Profile: MU: Majority undergraduate
Undergraduate Profile: FT4/MS/LTI: Full-time four-year, more selective, lower transfer-in
Size and Setting: L4/HR: Large four-year, highly residential
Basic RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity)

I don't think it's discrimination at all for the Pac-10 not to have BYU in the fold. If they brought in BYU they'd have lawsuits galore when non-Mormon Pac-10 kids had to pay more to go to BYU.

so they have a separate tuition tier based on religious affiliation? well geez yeah, that would seem to be a big disqualifier.

 

[bigb]

perhaps it was BYU that rebuffed a possible invite because they didn't want to agree to conditions mandated by the Pac 10?


if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.

also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.

Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:

Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm

I don't know if I would use the term "national fanbase". I know it's been used over and over again. I think most Mormons from across the country would pay attention to them and cheer for them, unless they were playing the school they actually attended. They will follow BYU whether they went there or not. I get the same impression a lot of Catholics do the same with Notre Dame, but I may be wrong.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

Bottom line on academics, BYU realizes most grad degrees are completely worthless and focuses their attention on undergrad. Now that's a smart school.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I don't know if I would use the term "national fanbase". I know it's been used over and over again. I think most Mormons from across the country would pay attention to them and cheer for them, unless they were playing the school they actually attended. They will follow BYU whether they went there or not. I get the same impression a lot of Catholics do the same with Notre Dame, but I may be wrong.

I am a Catholic, and my whole family is as well. None of us are Notre Dame fans. I also know several Baptists, and not a single one is a Baylor fan.

I think most people keep their religion and sports seperate.

The reason Notre Dame is such a big name with a huge fanbase is because they are on tv every week. Not only that, but up until Alabama won the championship last year, Notre Dame had the most all time champioinships. So you put a team on national tv every week, have them win the championship more often than any other team, and they are bound to get a pretty good sized fanbase. It doesn't have anything to do with religion.

Notre Dame is like the Lakers, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. The fanbase is huge, but it isn't because of religion.

I have already pointed out that I know plenty of LDS who aren't BYU fans (just take a look at the stands at any Ute home game and you will see thousands, within 40 minutes of the BYU campus). So I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume that just because someone is of a particular faith, that they will root for a particular football team. Sure some people will, but the majority of people don't.

 

[CONAN]

just for the sake of comparison...




so they have a separate tuition tier based on religious affiliation? well geez yeah, that would seem to be a big disqualifier.

Yup.